---
title: "Stamford Select Board — September 3, 2026"
date: 2026-09-03
session: regular
speaker_labels: 1 cluster(s) named from the roll call and that meeting's chair in the minutes, 1 named from roster attendance, 7 of 9 clusters unnamed
voice_ids: {"SPEAKER_00":13,"SPEAKER_02":11,"SPEAKER_03":14,"SPEAKER_05":3,"SPEAKER_06":5,"SPEAKER_07":2,"SPEAKER_08":8,"SPEAKER_09":20,"SPEAKER_10":1}
duration_min: 118
audio: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hHhrdDWVNBJ6aUUOcweVvb2seQAsnAw1/view?usp=sharing
audio_source: town drive
minutes: https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Sbd%20Minutes%209-3-26.pdf
minutes_pending: false
present: [Nancy L. Bushika, Michael G. Denault, Jedidiah Gramlin]
absent: [Kurt Gamari, John Dunn]
transcribed: 2026-10-12 (faster-whisper large-v3, CUDA; names corrected per data/name_fixes.json)
diarization: pyannote/speaker-diarization-3.1 (automated; cluster labels may over-split a single voice; unattributed paragraphs have no reliable speaker)
---

# Stamford Select Board — September 3, 2026

**Session:** Regular · **Duration:** 118 min · [Audio](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1hHhrdDWVNBJ6aUUOcweVvb2seQAsnAw1/view?usp=sharing) · [Minutes](https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Sbd%20Minutes%209-3-26.pdf)

**Present:** Nancy L. Bushika, Michael G. Denault, Jedidiah Gramlin
**Absent:** Kurt Gamari, John Dunn

---
**Speaker 1:** I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Welcome to a meeting of the Stamford Select Board. If you have a matter to discuss that is not included on the agenda, you may do so by addressing the chairperson and stating your name and address. You will notice that all our meetings are recorded, and this is to aid with the summarization of the minutes. Visitors are welcome, and we allow five minutes of comments per visitor and 15 minutes per topic. Discussions will be held in a calm and civilized manner and respectful of others. Select coordinators present are... Michael G. Denault.

**Speaker 2:** Nancy Bushika. Chair Gremlin.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Will there be any adding of items or removing items from tonight's agenda? Yes.

**Speaker 3:** I have some new... Okay.

**Speaker 4:** I want to talk about the dogs list.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Dog list. Okay. And the request for proposal for reappraisal. Yeah. And I think that... I think that was it. Did you want to add me at the end? Finance. Permitting. Permitting. Fees. Okay. Executive session for... Well, fees don't have anything to do with it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. No, no, no. No. No. No. No.

**Speaker 5:** No.

**Speaker 6:** No.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** We don't need the executive. Fees, okay. Fees... You want to do it in the hearing of visitors? Oh. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Okay. All right.

**Speaker 7:** All right. Why don't we wait until we get into the meeting a little bit? Absolutely. Okay. Hearing of visitors. Lisa. I'm here to report on the... we had Laura Ranker she's a water source protection specialist from the agency of natural resources come down to speak to us she gave a good two-hour solid presentation so we did a lot of digging and deep dive into water sources you know water sheds and whatnot and source water in case you don't know is that what's considered the public water so like the school is a public considered public water because it has more than 25 people and the golf course is the other one in town so that's what the source water is and it comes with its own set of protections but we did discuss others this water specifically to Stamford and if you want to watch it it's on Jim's YouTube channel we also invited the conservation Commission and three members of the conservation Commission came to that as well which was nice so we're taking that in conjunction what we learned from the town surveys about the town largely wanting to preserve the natural characteristics of our town and we're putting that together with the idea of people being concerned about additional tax burdens and as we're investigating our town plan we're looking at how to protect best protect our water sources in town we'll get the cost of a water system or waste blood systems we're really thinking to what that would cost us in terms of installation and maintenance and that would require things like managers and inspectors and we have to have an emergency plan and things like that so all of that you can take into consideration and so we're just looking into all of that and the fragility of our natural environment

**Speaker 1:** I mean it was a super comprehensive and really illuminating look at essentially just kind of the inter- inter- connectedness of all the versions of water that we all rely on. And she gave a really good, you know, there were diagrams and we have all the stuff if anybody's like, I'd like to see the whole presentation, we have it. But essentially just, you know, just how every single part of our water system affects everything else. And it just felt like something to really plan around, especially because the consensus from, you know, the town survey that we put out, a lot of people were talking about water and wanting to protect our water and the reality that having clean water to drink is like gold. Basic, essential. It's basic, it's essential. And so I just was really like kind of happy and, you know, feel much more deeply understanding of the whole thing that, you know, deserves consideration as we go forward. So, yeah, it was a great presentation. And, you know, I think obviously, you know, there's a push from the state for more development and, you know, we have our town has our own reasons why it really has to be balanced very carefully with the finances that would be in. And also just the desirability of what any system would then yield and how, again, everything affects everything else. So it was, it was, it was quite great. I recommend it. Or even just read the minutes. Because there's a, there's a great sort of bullet points of a lot of things that she brought up. And yeah, if you have questions, ask us.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Thank you. Do you have a comment on the water situation?

**Speaker 8:** I wanted to thank the conservation, I mean, excuse me, the planning commission for avoiding the conservation. It was very nice of them. Anytime I hear my name mentioned in meetings, and I've heard my name mentioned twice in the last few weeks, you're going to see me because when false information comes through, I have to come in here and defend myself. But the bottom line simply is the conservation committee has been looking at water for over a year and a half, and I've been looking at water long before. I know as far as this town is concerned, it's the number one issue we have in terms of the school and the center of town.

We have multiple failing septic systems. Many of them are going into the river. Many where I live go into the river.

**Speaker 8:** And they're talking about the state coming down and saying, oh, these are natural eco-virus resources that have been polluted for 75 years. You'll never get a clean water out of them. We have gravel beds. They're flowing in from the Round Brook. We just okayed a gravel bed that stayed open 45 years ago, and then Mr. Laura came in and wanted to do a housing development. I was part of that, and we approved it. But this time they came in and they wanted to recycle asbestos, brick, paint, things that came in from other ends. Fortunately, we caught it and said that's not going to happen. You're not going to grind in the stuff near the river. When here we are trying to, you know, find clean aquifers, which really don't exist other than up the mountains where people are building left and right, but we do have good water resources, one that we've had for 150 years called Broad Brook, and there's Stamford Pond, and there's other things that are untouched right now by sewer that would make a great resource for this town. I heard during the meeting that somebody said Dave Selvo said there's... Their board is, you know, looking to put in a municipal water system. That's probably correct. Our board has been looking at information, which I have here, which I gave to the planning commission. What did you give us? What's Pam Ford, she was supposed to send copies, she didn't. I'll send it again, I have it right here. Essentially, the bottom line in all of this is simple. I started putting septic systems in at 16 years old, and it was my first job on the way, I had to put in septic. And when I built my house, I built the first mound system in Stamford, I have enough thousand square feet of septic systems you could put a hotel there to protect the water going across the road.

Unfortunately for me, everybody has diverted the water to my property, and it stays like a culvert's plot above the road. So I give up.

**Speaker 8:** I give all that water, which goes across my land, that I have an agreement with the state here, when I bought it, that I have to keep that swell open to the world. I can make them do it, but I'd rather do it myself. And I've done it for years, because I do, believe it or not, I do mow it and hay it. It's just, my tractor broke down, I was sick, I didn't get to do it. So the bottom line is, my research, just so you guys, they say a municipal water system, a septic system, a septic system could cost anywhere from $11 to $20 million. I'm talking about for this little area here. A water system, $800,000. So if you can find the right spring, the right source that you can tap into, the state of Vermont has this going on with several small towns. They're willing to fund this and also help maintain 80%. So people can do it. So people stop polluting the rivers. The town can start taking care of the septic systems that are, you know, basically all failed, including wells. And, you know, get proper stuff. So that's as far as I've gotten with it. Our goal on the conservation committee, you know, since I've been on all the boards, I know how this goes.

We gather the information.

**Speaker 8:** We decide, you know, this is a important role for the conservation. We're doing exactly what we should be doing. Once we find everything, we present it to the select board to say, are you interested in us pursuing this further? Or do you want to hand it to the planning commission? I just assumed that the planning commission, doing zoning ordinances, doing the town plan, had their hands full. So when I was basically asked to leave it, I said, well, I can take it. I can work on this with the conservation. Two big things here. We'll be gone. You'll be gone.

I'll be gone.

**Speaker 8:** This school is like a step away from the state coming down and saying, you're done. You don't have clean water here. And the sewer is full again. That has been an ongoing issue since I've been in town for 50 years. So we should be looking at how we can either get a water supply, which will resolve it, or build another section. If we were going to do a septic system, I would think, you know, it's going to be a lot of work. I think that we would, in itself, we'd grab a fee into the driving range on the right-hand side. That big open field would be big enough to accommodate these 20 houses. And probably going up. Mill Road a bit, and then Judson Road. And then you have the golf course, which would be another ideal situation because they own land, you know, way past the golf course. If they wanted to bring in some condos or something. They would have to put a big municipal system in to handle that, which would take care of the town. So there's a lot of things that could be. These are just thoughts. I'm not advocating for anything. One thing I'm not advocating for is for us to have to bear the burden when the state comes and says, no go.

You're going to bring in a water system. And you're going to pay for it.

**Speaker 8:** And the taxpayers are going to have to do it. And I appreciate it. I appreciate the concerns about wetlands class 2 and whatever. I heard Kurt mention that I was legally digging on the property. Kurt doesn't understand that wetlands class 2 that had farming activity, which this one does, is not accepted. And I can give you all the records. And you know this. As long as I'm not in the room. You know what I'm saying? I agree with you. I'm trying to get that swell across my feet.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Dave, I talked to the state. They told me that you mentioned the culverts coming across Route 100. Every time they have a problem with that, they just discontinue them. They don't replace them. So down by my building down there, right by Bobby Costings, there used to be a culvert there. Absolutely. They discontinued it. You can see the water is still there between my place and Bobby's. It goes down. The ditch gets bigger and bigger. But there's no culvert there. And then it comes across the property now instead of going to the river. Floods the back. It goes into the other culvert that is also locked. And he said they're supposed to clean those. They put them in. Just like down here. They're supposed to. But again, they don't have the manpower to do it just like anything else. So you're right. You can maintain your own water. Your drink. Take your maple syrup. And cut lumber. I got a question for you. Go ahead. You mentioned 80%. You said the state would pay 80%. Yeah. I'm a numbers guy. I like money. I like saving. No, go ahead. I agree. If they gave us 80% of these numbers you mentioned, and then you said they would continue to maintain it, the first question I would say is, how long? How long would you maintain it? You would have to ask that. That would be a concern. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

**Speaker 8:** I don't know.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. How long would you maintain it? You would have to ask that. That would be a concern down the road because I've seen systems get put in. This is a good question. I'm from Clarksburg, and they messed up so bad down there. Oh, yeah. They had an 80% deal.

**Speaker 9:** They said no. They always stuck into them.

**Speaker 8:** And up at 20% when they were all done. I should have Laura copy this off for you. Um, it goes into great detail. That's okay. Yeah, yeah. And it gets into it. Yeah.

**Speaker 10:** has the extra yeah that's right we don't have to go right now because like i said it's in the baby

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** stages yeah yeah right you know you said nancy won't be here if you won't be here but i probably

**Speaker 11:** won't be either you know probably two or three people here right right you gotta still keep

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** working on it and get as much information as you can you know me i don't get dog and see if it goes

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** what happens with these systems and again i'm not against it at all i agree with you i used to fish this river all the time i know which which sewer systems are failing a lot okay all the way down to the north north yeah so but the the state puts these things in place they do offer the money and that's when the town should take it if they can but then they they seem to bail out and then the town then they take tell the taxpayers we're not going to raise your tax especially in mass we got a two and a half percent uh override so they don't vote they added so they put a sewer tax in they call it a fee instead of the word tax and now these people got paid double what they were told so i always want to make sure we look at that first they got

**Speaker 8:** into that part this would only be for 20 households yeah or the 30 households in town yeah you set up an organization yeah through the fire department yep yep and there's no the state picks up the fee to get it done and yeah the thing interesting thing about this article is they have so many towns i mean reevesboro was gifted yankee atomic yes so they went in and modernized everything right now we have to look at the fuel rods from the next our life because they can't get rid of them that almost washed down because i

**Speaker 1:** we have a lot of problems marta um i just wanted to say that the planning commission welcomes any research that you do um it's you know it's instrumental and important for us to get as much

**Speaker 8:** information as you dig up and hate has its own chart that we have to report so so if you want to work with the conservation committee that's right that's not what has been indicted over the last four years well i'm just here to say that we welcome any information that you find and vice

versa well that's why we invited you to learn i know i think laura learned a lot too okay dave i was a with the school a little while ago and with the college disease out of focus a little bit so i think i was a former operator at that time at the college university so i think i would go deeper if they were i'm really not going to go because we know clearly enough that every area of the state does

**Speaker 12:** irreversibly better than progressive development and KE', e, art ages forih trapping and disagreeing with the conversation right there's there'sை. decreased the power gap between management and the business environment as compared to general susceptibility right now particularly about the of wastewater and wastewater treatment plants in St. Vermont. And I appreciate as much information as we can get on this. I think we also should look into what can we do to avoid it from happening. I think that's more important than installing a system. There's a lot that goes into maintaining these systems. And that's where planning comes in. Way above and beyond. 50 years down the road on this tennis court, they're coming and inspecting things, wondering what's going on with the $7,000 we gave us.

In 1974. I can only imagine the oversight on that. Just my two cents.

**Speaker 12:** I'm not saying yes or no. But I believe the best solution is to try to not have that happen. And... You know, a service water system like Stamford Pond, you're going to be treating that with chemicals. I'm guessing that most people are not going to drink that water. I think that the sewer, you know, the wastewater is probably more important as far as... You know, more practical, I would say. Right?

**Speaker 8:** Not by cost, Dave. Not by cost. We're talking $800,000 to $10,000.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I wonder what it would take. This is inter... You know, joint state. If we could go all the way down and hook into Clark Square's sewer system. Or if that would just be a crazy idea.

**Speaker 8:** No. I thought of it before.

**Speaker 10:** It's all downhill.

**Speaker 8:** It's all downhill. But then you've got to...

**Speaker 10:** You know what they say.

**Speaker 12:** I guess my point was, you're not going to drink that water.

Right, right. Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** No, I agree with you. I've seen the North End sewer system shut down. They're done. They go to Williamstown now. I've fixed... Trust me. One of my worst favorite jobs is going in and change the shafts in the packs. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's testing all the time.

**Speaker 12:** There's reports. And they're going to dictate to you what's going to go on forever. Yeah. I know when the house does sell. That's when we find out that the sewer systems failed. I bought my house up here and Chetty put the dye in. It came out. Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in. Chetty put the dye in the tank. Yeah. Yeah. Chetty put the dye in mine, it came out on the lawn. I mean, within seconds. He goes, that's not good. We dug it up and it was a steel tank and it was not enough to bring it to the scrapyard.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** That's not a bad idea.

**Speaker 13:** I'll disagree with you.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Dave, I'm not advocating... Okay. One last thing and then we're moving on. Okay.

**Speaker 14:** Okay.

**Speaker 8:** Yep. Go ahead. I'm not advocating for a wastewater treatment plant. The only reason I brought it up was to show you the expense difference, $10 million versus $800,000. I also wanted to say that I have some of the best water in Vermont.

My spring in the future, that home and the other people I've had tested every which way,

**Speaker 8:** you know, working as an engineer in GE and, you know, I've done it all. I can see it now. Selbo Springs. My only point is I believe there are water sources a lot closer as long as we stop building a bottle. You know, when everything's going into the river, we're not getting houses down next to the river with oil tanks.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Or we got an oil tank down here that hasn't ever needed anything. How are you going to put a water system in there? Right. That's what Dave said. Yeah, that makes sense.

**Speaker 12:** I'm sorry. That's my point. It's avoidance. Ignorating the minutes and 80 years from now as we go back and say,

boy, we should have listened to that guy. Because it's not going to get easier. I mean, I've been...

**Speaker 12:** I've been out of this now for, like, 20 years. But 20 years ago was an absolute nightmare. I can't imagine it's gotten any easier to run one of these systems.

**Speaker 15:** Okay. I know we're not going to...

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I know we're not going to solve this tonight. No. But you've got to keep working on it. Yeah. Bring the information forward.

**Speaker 8:** Information.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yep. I just have one question.

**Speaker 13:** Sorry.

**Speaker 8:** No, I'm just kidding.

What's that? I was looking at Nancy.

**Speaker 16:** Are there programs out there, grants, for people who do have a failed septic system? Rather than say, oh, gee, you know, I could still flush my toilet, but I don't... Not state money. Laura said no. No. No. I didn't remember hearing that. Okay.

**Speaker 8:** There are salt-contained systems that they put around the lakes? No, no.

**Speaker 17:** All the time?

**Speaker 16:** Grants or something to help people.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, you're saying that the guy, because of finances, says, I wish I could get my...

**Speaker 18:** I wish I could.

**Speaker 16:** Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, they're... Yeah.

**Speaker 19:** That's a good approach to protecting... The whole special interest loan situation comes into play. I think you can apply for those through the state. Better loans. So you get a little better deal in the end. Well, when we do find any of that out, we should definitely pump that information out

**Speaker 20:** to the public.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump.

**Speaker 11:** Pump.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump.

**Speaker 7:** Pump.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump. Pump.

**Speaker 19:** Pump. Pump. Pump.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Pump. Pump. day. Rhodes and then Laurie and you will talk about

**Speaker 12:** Wednesday. The next Wednesday they're coming to do the sweep and service.

**Speaker 16:** I noticed it seems like there's washboard going. Is that loose stone still?

Yeah, that should be all. I got out and I gave it a little kick. Shut it before it comes in. That's just on the track. Okay. Okay.

**Speaker 8:** I kind of missed the best part.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Do you want to talk about West Road then or wait for Laurie? No, I think you should bring that up now. Alright, go ahead. I don't know that

**Speaker 12:** much about it. The culvert, the state line, they're going to do some preliminary work. They're going to start actual work in road closure in the spring.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So wintertime won't be closed. That's good. Right.

**Speaker 12:** And then they're going to, it says November they should be done by November. So basically the whole construction will be done by November. Okay.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Alright. Is Clarksburg doing it or are they contracting

**Speaker 12:** out or you don't know? I'm guessing it's too big of a job for them. Yeah, I don't think so.

**Speaker 15:** Okay.

**Speaker 12:** So the residents that will be affected from Stamford will just have to use the line that I can counsel you around for that. We've had a similar situation before with the bridge. So, yeah, there'll be a little more

**Speaker 21:** traffic. Should we tell the residents

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** to send them a letter or something like that?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I think we should wait until we hear from Clarksburg when they're closing.

**Speaker 22:** Right. It's in the minutes. Be prepared.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Something's going to happen.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Carl and his wife are done the shop today.

**Speaker 12:** We're not in control of it. I'm sure word of mouth, you know, but I would say we'll try to firm that up, you know, maybe towards spring with Clarksburg and then maybe send something out

because a lot can happen in a couple months. They may decide they just can't do it this year, you know, all of a sudden. Once they can, I mean,

**Speaker 12:** they've got to bid it out. They've got a bunch of things. It's going to happen, so people will be excited.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** We will notify residents, and I'm sure Clarksburg will too, but the word will get out.

**Speaker 12:** I appreciate that, you know, the heads up as far as they're letting us know.

So, how long will it be

**Speaker 12:** closed? Well, they're telling us basically all summer until November. From spring to November. Spring to fall. I don't think it's going to take that long, but

**Speaker 23:** I don't know. My understanding

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** is it's just going to be a culvert, not a bridge. Right. So, I think you just need a cement culvert, all right? I'm not sure. Pretty big. Yeah. That's a pretty good size. Yeah, it's a sizable. I'm surprised it's not going to be a bridge. Yeah. It's just, well, maybe not just as big, but almost as big as a brook that comes by me.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay. Anything else on roads and equipment?

**Speaker 12:** No, we're going to have the same stuff. We finished up the shoulder, and I'm sure the stone line

and the ditching. So, I've got some ditching to do on.

**Speaker 12:** I've got to look at the road. I've got to look at the weather. Hopefully if things stay dry, I'll be able to put my sportsman and put that culvert in.

I'm assuming that they...

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yeah. Any update on

**Speaker 12:** that? Which one? The new one?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** The new one? Anything broken down?

**Speaker 12:** No. What else is it? Yes and no. I do have to send the truck up to the freight liner. It's got some electrical. Okay. Anything

else on roads? No. No, I think they're okay.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Recycling?

**Speaker 1:** Marta? I was at recycling on Wednesday, and apparently, and I don't know, it's not mine to tell you, but you've already been informed, that somebody came in before the gates were open and put a bunch of race car fuel, five-gallon things in the compactor, and Carol and Joey were both like, how did this happen? This is no good. And I was like, doesn't that have a little stuff, and isn't that supposed to not be in the trash compactor? So I don't know if you guys heard about it.

**Speaker 12:** No. Yeah, she did tell me about it. I know that Joey was trying to get them out of there and throw them in the scrap dumpster.

**Speaker 1:** But a bunch of them had already been crushed.

**Speaker 24:** Do we know who did it?

The gate shut, so somebody had to go in there, maybe during the

**Speaker 12:** day when we were out working, I'm guessing, but she said it wasn't in there before that. She had gone and thrown the school trash.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I still think we should get a... a camera to see who's going in, and...

**Speaker 12:** But are you going to force it? That's what I want to know.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** We can put their names in the minutes and just embarrass them that this is not supposed to go.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I think if we're going to, no. If we're going to do that, it would be illegal dumping. So when we say enforce it. If a person that has, you know, a town resident, like you said, you kind of tell them, it's okay if you go up County Road and you pick up a bunch of trash and throw it over, you know, put it in the dumpster. We know those people, but if we see someone from downtown go up, someone that's not a resident, come up here and dump illegal crap or asbestos or something, that'd be one thing. And then, how do you find them? You send them a fine, you set it up like we had, you know, we talked about. But we have that already in place that we can find illegal dumping. The thing is, the minute they go to court, we don't have any...

**Speaker 12:** I just know, we've had this in the past where I've had people's trash with their names scattered out on the side of the road and you can't do anything to them.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Well, I think we should just put it in the minutes. If someone's trash can be found illegal dumping, wait until the recycling's open or...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Our experience up by my campus, you call the state troopers and get them on it. Don't even worry about the town getting involved. If you find someone with their name on the side of the road, call the wardens or state troopers, they come right in and they follow up on that investigation. And they have. They've gone right down to North Adams. I had a contractor dump a bunch of crap up on my place. It wasn't a contractor, it was his worker. He subcontracted it out.

**Speaker 12:** So today I got a text message this afternoon there's a couple kids in one of the dumpsters at the recycling center. Kids? In it? Yeah. I mean, I know who they are, I've been there a few times. We're going to send their parents a letter.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** What are they doing in the dumpster? They're picking out trash and good stuff.

**Speaker 12:** The dumpster in front of something you want.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** If they get hurt, what happens? What happens to them?

**Speaker 12:** I'm just saying, how many bikes do you want to pick?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Some. We'd be responsible if they get hurt.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I mean, I would take, if you know who they are, and you know the parents, and you think the parents are like the old days, I'd tell the parents in a second. Because that happened to me in Stamford, or Clarksbury, I was in Koreax's lumber mill, and they pulled all the things, dumped all the sawdust all over the place. I don't know. I got caught. I guess, I'll tell you what, I won't ever do it again.

**Speaker 12:** You know how I am, I just don't like rules that I have to follow. We're not going to follow it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Me too. I agree.

**Speaker 12:** I'm not trying to, I just, in fact, the last time they were in the dumpster, the grandmother, one of their grandmothers came looking for them and laughed about it. They said they shouldn't be in there.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I think I think the parents should know where the kids are in the dumpster. That this is not safe. There's wax in there, there's rusty metal.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You're right, but you already told parents and they don't I'm not saying they don't care, but apparently it's not like the old days. And I agree with you. So, you tell them next time, you know, we're going to send you a fine. That's all you can do

**Speaker 9:** is send them a pocketbook.

**Speaker 8:** I heard you talking about people dumping on the side of the road

**Speaker 10:** and I'm just wondering. Not anymore of it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** No. Not up my place.

**Speaker 8:** No, no, I'm talking about Stamford in general. Do you still find them dumping on the road? In and up and

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I mean a cage only. Yeah, maybe up by the high tensions, maybe. But like Risky Ranch Road, it's almost zero now.

**Speaker 8:** I was wondering how many fines do the judicial bureau have executed?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Not many.

**Speaker 8:** I mean, I used to do it right. I find an address, I call up

**Speaker 11:** That worked better. We do have

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** cameras and what we do is we just we have the cameras and with today's cell phones and everything we get there. I come up from the shop I get a call from what's up there. I get rid of them. I confront them. I know it's not the smartest thing to do with some people but I confront them and I tell them look, we're going to pick it up or we're calling the cops.

**Speaker 8:** They lose the right to drive them from

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah. I mean they have The state troopers have done a pretty good job. They've gone to North Adams. North Adams police have been to my camp. So it has, they do their job, trust me. I have a camp on Risky Ranch Road.

**Speaker 11:** Thank you, Dave.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Hopefully we can keep the kids out of the dumpster. Maybe some I mean

**Speaker 21:** Put an electric fence

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** around there.

**Speaker 23:** It's a small town too.

**Speaker 12:** We're not open that much. There's some people that come throw recycling away during the day. Sometimes they're there. How do we want to get How strict do I have to be about this?

**Speaker 25:** Because I don't like kids.

**Speaker 16:** I think the kids in the dumpster, that's a danger. Do you have a sign of video surveillance?

**Speaker 12:** I have a sign there. It doesn't matter.

**Speaker 25:** I've never seen it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You mean kind of like the

**Speaker 18:** police car that's in town?

**Speaker 16:** Yeah, that's so funny. It made me slow down.

**Speaker 18:** Like, wait a minute. They don't have a car.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** They moved it. Now it's over by my dad's house.

**Speaker 10:** Is one of those people your relatives?

**Speaker 8:** What's that? Is one of those kids your relatives? My kids? No. Because I see them in there all the time.

**Speaker 12:** You're not related? Maybe very distant. I'm just saying, Dave. See, you just said you saw them too. What are you going to do? I tell the kids they shouldn't be in the dumpster. It's something they can pick it out with.

I said the same thing. I got a text today.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's good, but they want to work for the town.

**Speaker 10:** We'll give them five bucks.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You know, I agree. It's very difficult. It goes all the way with all of the rules we have in the town. Some rules are different than other rules. Some things get enforced and some things don't. We're not perfect. I said this with the planning board. Our bylaws aren't perfect. They're better than when I first came on the board. But they're not perfect. The rules, I said that a long time ago. If we're not going to enforce it, get rid of it. But there are certain things that this is a few and far between type of thing. There are certain things that don't happen very often. Hopefully we can tell these parents it has come up and you're going to make us put it in these rules. And you are going to get fined if you take them. And hopefully we can skid them off a little bit. Because it costs money to do everything

**Speaker 21:** you're talking about.

**Speaker 12:** Everything we talk about costs money. It's more just the kids too.

**Speaker 8:** I forgive the kids almost more than I do the adults. I jump in all the time. I think it's a good thing that kids can go to the recycling center and grab a bicycle or a set of golf clubs. And they do. A lot of stuff gets thrown away. I know I used to go through the junk center and you just picked up stuff.

**Speaker 9:** I still do it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Best place in the world.

**Speaker 12:** Some of this is going to lead into we're going to be open more the recycling center. It's an all cost thing because people are going to start complaining that they can't

go there when they've got a bag of fishy trash in the summer. Throw it in the freezer. That's what I do. It turns into that. So I'm looking for direction.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I'll think about it. Good. That's it. Recycling. Good. Moving on. It's been suggested that we have a finance committee again this year. If there's any volunteers this would be the time to start get ready in December. I don't know if the school how they're doing with their budgets. I haven't heard anything. What they're working on. Have you heard anything? And if the finance committee does oversee the school. I don't know if they would do that anymore. If anyone's interested give us your names. We have delinquent tax sale. Sally.

**Speaker 26:** Speaking of rules and regulations. The state has gotten involved now with delinquent taxes. And I have to go and I have to post a notice on their house. I might get shot but what in the hell is

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'm sorry. I've already made myself clear through emails about this.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** No. No. I said I would go with Sally. And then I thought about it and I said

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** this is crazy. Even I said I'd go but there would be consequences to that. And that would go back to the town. Yes. I have to do whatever the hell I want. But if I'm going as a select board member and I do something then you guys are going to be paying for it. So we need to if the state wants us to do this we need to tell the state to send the state troopers down here to protect us.

**Speaker 26:** But not only that

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I have to take a picture. Go ahead and take pictures

**Speaker 16:** of people's houses. It's posted on the door. You have to enter their property. You can't just put it on a pole outside.

**Speaker 27:** If there's a building

**Speaker 26:** it must be fixed to the building. The thing is Joe will shoot you. I'm not kidding. I know. Well the thing is

**Speaker 28:** is the state.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** If I was in bad taxes

and you came to my house you're old.

**Speaker 26:** It's not safe. No it's not safe but I will say that I have spoken with other people who are buying these letters. It needs to be done by law enforcement.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Law enforcement. Right. Because of the liability. Like I said I'll go. I'll carry a firearm so they can see me coming. That doesn't matter. You guys are going to be responsible for my address. So you have bullet belts. Badges? We don't need no sticky badges.

**Speaker 26:** But what about the people that are putting property up with no building. Right. Like can't I just nail it on the closest tree? I mean you know. Come on.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** It doesn't say anything about no building there.

**Speaker 26:** And then it doesn't even tell me how many 15 days from the sale or 20 or whatever. My son is really good

**Speaker 16:** with graphics. If you get me the thing we'll get a picture of the house and we'll superimpose it. AI.

**Speaker 26:** AI. I'm not crying anymore.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Let the state come down and we'll just say at the end of the day if the state made us do this the state can pay for our protection.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Now that would be passed on to the delinquent tax sale. Now that's a fee that the tax payer is going to have to pay if he wants to redeem his property. And so that's an added expense.

**Speaker 26:** It was never added on

at this time because

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Because almost all the towns they go, they have some sort of law enforcement, and we don't. You know, you can't call the sheriffs because who knows if they'll show up. Because we don't have a contract with them, they're not obligated to show up. That's not, you know, a crime in action.

**Speaker 26:** So, I just want to say that Mount Kinner has been very busy trying to mess everything up.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** When is the tax sale?

9-24, what time?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yeah, but what time?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Sally, I have a question. It came to my attention that there was a property in the list, and then one of those properties is not going to be at that tax sale. No. Because of timing, or?

**Speaker 26:** No, because of, like you say, someone else screwed up the paperwork. Laurie. Which property is not going to be at that tax sale?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I don't know if I should say whose it is at this point. Can I say whose it is? You can see which one is pulled off. I can tell you later, but I don't know, because they might pay still. Okay.

**Speaker 29:** It's up to you guys.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay.

**Speaker 16:** I must have seen the one that got pulled out.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I just don't want to get this wrong.

**Speaker 22:** Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay. So, Sally. We have to find somebody to put those on. Before the tax sale.

**Speaker 26:** Well, I don't know when. I mean, put them up an hour before? I don't know, because, like you say, you know.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Can you find out when they have to be posted, and if the green card has come back? It doesn't say. It says if the green card does not come back to the delinquent taxpayer, then it's got to be posted, but it doesn't say.

**Speaker 26:** Well, the attorney has the green cards.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Can you find out, then, if they come back? And then we'll try to get somebody to deliver them.

**Speaker 11:** They have to post this on their property.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** But you also have to send them a letter, too.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Oh, yeah.

**Speaker 26:** They've already signed.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay.

**Speaker 28:** So that's all done.

**Speaker 26:** But if they didn't sign. This is just an add-on.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay.

**Speaker 28:** If they don't sign.

**Speaker 26:** So it's a useless thing. And then you also, now you also have to have a payment plan. In place. Even though it's a couple of years behind. Yep. Now we want to do a payment plan, and that will be run off by seven months or whatever.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** And then they can stop that and go back to.

**Speaker 26:** That's right. If you're at them.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Right.

**Speaker 26:** But they're really working very hard.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** So, Sally and Lori, can you find out if the green cards have come back that we don't have to do it? If they have not, find out when we should post them. And get state police or sheriff, state police probably.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I agree. But that's, I mean, if the state troopers want to do it. They'll go. And you still don't want to go. I'll go.

**Speaker 26:** Right. Well, that's why.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Because, I mean, you might still feel uncomfortable even when a state trooper. Well, like I said. Because I'm going to tell you, you walk on someone's property, I don't care.

**Speaker 26:** Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** How many cops? That guy knows you're coming. I'm not saying this would happen in Stamford. But there's been things in this country that have gone crazy. But we have out of state people.

And I do not have any clue as to who these people are. Right.

**Speaker 26:** And so therefore, I mean, I don't want to get involved.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I mean. I don't blame you.

**Speaker 26:** I don't. I don't blame you at all. No. No way. So, like you said, the state of Vermont, well, they can come up with a new program. And therefore, you can start adding that cost onto the expenses for Jacksonville. I'd like to send back a letter to Montpelier. Tell them this is unacceptable. Tell them to come down and meet with us. Yeah. So, carrying on that note, I happened to get a phone call from Representative Crosby.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby.

**Speaker 3:** Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. Representative Crosby. trouble with if you want us i can get that information back to him so he can be prepared to talk to you when he comes and i didn't know if there were any other issues on the forefront

**Speaker 12:** that's just the only one that school tax uh property taxes will be out water sewer yeah

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** um next meeting do you want it during the meeting before the meeting i'll have it during the meeting

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** so people can chime in yeah the guy comes once a year we might as well have everybody say hi

**Speaker 16:** should we be in the post-it do you think you'll get a group or

feel it out we can always move over here too we have reserved that oh okay every first thursday huh anticipation right

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** okay anticipation anything else sally sounds like a high-end schedule um christmas tree lighting ceremony that was brought up too if um we've had volunteers other years uh if anybody wants to volunteer with the ceremony just do you know what the date is whatever day you choose oh i hope so you're the committee here

**Speaker 22:** you want a committee this is something about the tree the town start the town

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** town volunteers

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** town volunteers started i know you did but it is not a function of the select board

**Speaker 22:** but we all there was a lot of volunteers we all chipped in and helped pay for stuff and volunteered and whatever volunteers are people far between nowadays okay um so yeah if you find

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** people if you guys want to it's not that hard you know what i mean but theresa used to do it and she's got well her mom is she's been watching her mom a lot now so it's uh it could be big or little whatever you want things are yeah but if you want to do it i'll put the tree up you put lights on it

**Speaker 30:** at the very least we'll get the tree and some lights on it i know that it's often the first

**Speaker 1:** saturday or first sunday in the month of december yeah and i'm not going to be here that weekend

**Speaker 30:** because my daughter does a show in nashville um it doesn't necessarily have to be on the weekend

**Speaker 1:** okay whenever all right let me let me give it some thought and and sniff around for some help

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** ers and you would get i mean i'm sure that i'm sure yeah and it's been really sweet years where

**Speaker 1:** the um the school students have made ornaments for the day and that sort of brings out everybody

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** if this is the first time we've had it talked about this earlier i think so that'd be really

**Speaker 1:** nice right now also is is luke mckay still doing hay rides and do we still have that wrench because that that was awesome that year and we were on the hayride together that year yeah so my

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** there sam is real but there was another guy that was a relative of mine that was doing something okay

**Speaker 22:** okay so uh yeah all right all right it's in my hopper okay watch out all right joint meeting

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** with school and library so we brought this up last take care of day a couple weeks ago and the school said they can do september 22nd at five o'clock so i reached out to the library uh they is on the topic tuesdays do not work for three of the trustees um they have programs scheduled for

**Speaker 22:** september several dates in september that's a tuesday the 27th yeah yes i can't be there

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** which all thursdays um so it's going to be hard to get everybody from every board maybe we should just pick a date and say well everything comes from me so how about a pick a monday or a wednesday

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** pick a day yeah mondays are good i can't be too sure but that's not necessary you can't have it go fast pick a day i think monday some monday would be better for me for me

**Speaker 1:** well the second and fourth mondays are planning commissions right so just to put that in there

**Speaker 3:** first or third fourth are planning and the third is conservation yeah ah okay so first monday okay first october monday yeah september so first monday yep

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** monday october i'm gonna be gone okay all right um that's october how about november or another day or another day in october or wednesday in october wednesday you know are you going all the week

**Speaker 4:** i'm going from september3 october3 the 10th okay what about um that's october

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** yeah i think we should do our totals yeah i think we should do our totals

**Speaker 19:** it's definitely sooner than later because the closer we get to all the holidays after all the days

**Speaker 12:** november is a holiday for most vermowners

**Speaker 21:** want to try september

**Speaker 12:** i'm on vacation

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** yeah november is a holiday for most vermonters september 13th is a holiday for most vermonters for most vermonters

September. It just can't be a Monday. Yeah.

**Speaker 3:** So, September Wednesday. Wednesday you could do September 23rd, September 30th. You could do October 13th, October 21st.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Shoot for the 23rd of September. When they say no, then we're going to October. Yeah. But let's go early and see what we can do.

**Speaker 22:** Well, I think we just should set a date.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Who comes?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** September 23rd. That's a Wednesday.

Let it be done.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** And so it was.

6 o'clock. Have a moment. I won't be here, but you guys can handle it. I learned some of this stuff somewhere along the line. I don't know where it was. 6 p.m.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay. I will get in touch with the school and library. Nancy. School.

All right. Tennis court inspection. Okay.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Oh, tennis court inspection. We talked about it. Removing a couple meetings ago. Removing all the stuff in there because it looks pretty bad. And I mentioned it too, about the groups that use it. And they have good intentions. It was beautiful. Then they walk away. And now it's really a tripping hazard. It looks terrible down there. Weeds and broken blacktop and fences. Not good. So, okay. So that being said. I'm going to get in touch with you guys. So that being said, all of a sudden, Laurie, you can go on here. What happens? Oh, wait a minute. We got the grant for the tennis court in 1974, $7,000. And for many years, the select board maintained it with painting, striping, and new nets. And then probably maybe 20 years ago, I called. It can't be more than, I don't know, 15 anyway. Like years ago, I called the state and the LCT and told them about this grant that we got for the tennis court. But it's not feasible to maintain it anymore. Nobody was using it. And they told me the life expectancy of the tennis court is 30 years. So that's when we decided to do something with it. And that's when Seed Savers jumped in and said we want to use it. Then, two weeks ago, Laurie.

**Speaker 3:** Clear blue. A guy. Comes to my window to inspect our tennis courts.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** What?

Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** 50 years later.

That's bad.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Never have they been here before.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** How old was the guy?

**Speaker 22:** How was he getting paid a year?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That was under 50 years old. She had to wait for him to be born before he was born.

**Speaker 3:** He was okay with just marking that the tennis court was obsolete. It had lived its life and was done. But because it was converted. So it was converted into a garden that has now fallen into disarray. We're kind of written up for that. And he gave us six months to clean it up, straighten it out, and send him pictures that everything is in it.

**Speaker 19:** Does that mean like just make it look pretty? Graphic kind of design. So that if we went in, mowed things down, and then took pictures of it, sent it in.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Or we can just take pictures of something else and send it to him. Yeah. 50 years from now. 50 years from now, he's going to come down. That son could do some graphic design.

**Speaker 16:** Oh, that's right Nick. Nick will make it look beautiful.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** 50 years he's going to come down. Six months, you better do this. Or what?

**Speaker 16:** It's going to be a while before it develops. Do they want the $7,000?

Do you imagine? Honestly, it's not being used. It's still taking up to $40,000. You know?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** We don't even know what. You know, you talk about rules. Here's a rule with no consequence. Like we said, it's a tripping hazard.

**Speaker 3:** Exactly. What happens if we don't work?

**Speaker 31:** We have a mess. So it's got to be reclaimed.

**Speaker 16:** Well, why can't we? It's got a fence around it, right?

**Speaker 19:** Well, you can get in the fence like nothing. It's just bad. Somebody needs to come down with a weak leg.

**Speaker 2:** And clean things up.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Even last year, I wanted that cleaned up because it looks bad for the area. It's embarrassing to see that in the school.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** We talked about that.

**Speaker 16:** Give a dumpster and do it. Let's have a community clean-up day. Can't you just take the fence down and clean it all out?

**Speaker 31:** There's a lot of stuff that could hurt a person that's trained for that.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So...

**Speaker 22:** Jim?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** My opinion is get a dumpster day. Get down there and see what they can do.

**Speaker 12:** The school. I do. I kind of hope somebody will have to go through to get a dumpster out here. We've got to inform the school.

**Speaker 15:** Yeah. You're going to probably have to wait.

**Speaker 12:** How big a dumpster do you think you're going to need?

There's a thing. There's some wood. There's some steel. I don't know if I can mix it all together. It's got to be dry enough to dry trucks down there.

**Speaker 12:** Can you throw the wood on your truck? Yes, I can. It just becomes all... I might bring it up and dump it off. Or I can't use the truck until I can get the escalator back up there. I mean, there's always more to it. We're just going to clean this up.

**Speaker 23:** I hate to put my neck out there.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I hate to put my neck out there. But it was small enough for dump trailers. I have two that drop them off. You put wood and dirt in one of them. Debris and steel in the other one. And I'll take them away. Don't ask where they're going. It's none of your business.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** It probably has to be done when there's no school.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** When's that?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** They must have some days off. They're all...

**Speaker 12:** I've got to line up. The board is six months from now. The dumpster's got to be... The dumpster's we got for the other building. We don't have six months,

**Speaker 32:** but there's snow for two months.

**Speaker 19:** What's he thinking? It seems like the best thing for us is to pick up the snow.

**Speaker 33:** It's beautiful.

**Speaker 19:** And then deal with it.

That's a good start. Six months? It has snow for six months. Yeah. I don't care about that. There you go.

**Speaker 19:** I think somebody's got to step up and take care of the state's thing. You know, fines and stuff. I don't think he's going to fine us.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Plan for next year.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** No, this spring.

**Speaker 15:** I mean this fall.

**Speaker 12:** I know that I can get down there. That's what I'm saying.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I mean, we're talking six months.

**Speaker 21:** You've got three days.

**Speaker 12:** I can get the excavator down here and a couple of my trucks and clean up, let's say, the wood. The whole fence and all that's going to be more of a pain than just touch up what the mess is. I can get rid of that fairly easy. Spread out some dirt. The fence is what's going to be a pain in the neck. You've got to take all that down. The post's got to come out. I'm sure they're kind of treated now. You can't just rip all that down. This is going to be a tangled mess.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Right, right. I'll find out when there's going to be school vacation. Something must be coming up.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Or some days. The big thing is, if you find out, let's just say they say, okay, September 20th, they got a day off. Then he calls for the dumpster and they go, oh, you can't get one up. Right, right. The timing is, the logistics of it all. It sounds stupid. It's a stupid thing that it's so easy to do to get rid of it. I'll bring them down

**Speaker 12:** their boat. I keep an eye out for the town trucks. For now, if I don't have to worry about the fence, I'm just meeting it up. Get the truck in there,

**Speaker 23:** spread out some dirt.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** How about do all that and we'll worry about the fence another time.

**Speaker 12:** That should make the state

**Speaker 21:** happy enough.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** If we didn't, then they might say, well, that's nice, but you've got to take the fence down.

**Speaker 1:** We've got another six months.

**Speaker 19:** That's it. Just complying nine times out of ten

is enough. Take the trucks down. Did he have parameters set up? What needs to be done with it? I've got like page after page after page.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** What? Lots of pages, lots of pictures.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** If we change our mind, we're going to play tennis there. Right.

**Speaker 1:** Aren't play courts kind of old-fashioned?

**Speaker 34:** There you go.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** They didn't have concrete back in that way. Anyways,

**Speaker 22:** let's do our best.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'd say clean up everything we can.

**Speaker 12:** I'd rather do it

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** than go to school.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'll find out. Clean up as best you can. Like Jed's saying. We made it in time. We made it in time.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I don't know what 's in there for dirt.

**Speaker 12:** There could be some in the compost bins. There's not much.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** No. Okay. Old bits.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Anything else under corresponding for us? Are we skipping over zoning?

**Speaker 11:** Weren't we going to talk about that up front?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'm just going to let the old business.

**Speaker 16:** Go for it. It was just a continuation of our conversation two weeks ago regarding small sheds and how they should be permitted. Because right now we're doing just a filing phase. Do you mean permitted or permitted? Permitted. And I'll tell you what I've come up with. Structures on a property that are attached now to a building that are 300 square feet are going to be accessory to

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's going to be through

**Speaker 18:** a new bylaw?

**Speaker 16:** No. It's my interpretation of the existing bylaws.

**Speaker 35:** But we weren't

**Speaker 16:** doing that, correct? No. I think Jim was and I think Ron Falk was.

**Speaker 31:** So

**Speaker 16:** a dungeon of a building that is under 300 square feet is it that is at the discretion of the select board or the zoning administrator how it will be handled. My thought is it can't be moved. So you put a porch on it, it can't be moved. It's a little tiny porch but it can't be moved so it becomes part of the taxable value of the house. Take a 10 by 10 shed and put it out in your yard. You can move it all over the place. You can take it with you when you move. So it is not taxable.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I understand.

**Speaker 36:** I think it is

**Speaker 37:** taxable.

**Speaker 31:** Is it? Our buildings are taxable. How?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** That's the notice of the board. Right. I understand that. There's probably not much of a fee on there.

**Speaker 31:** I don't know.

**Speaker 16:** But they are part of your value.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** But that's where last meeting I asked we should in the bylaws have a minimal number and we don't. We have zero is our number.

**Speaker 18:** What do you mean zero?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Because we have a maximum number we say after this number I don't know what it is. 300 square feet. After that is a permit. Correct. And this is what you have. But going down we don't have anything that says a bread house. It's funny right? I can go a little bigger and go with a dog house.

**Speaker 34:** And then we can go to

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** a kids camp on the property line.

**Speaker 1:** So where do you stop?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's what I'm saying. I don't like the idea of permitting a kids camp on the property line. If the neighbor has a problem let them figure it out. Because I really don't like that type of living up here. I don't like the idea that someone is going to make me get a permit for a dog coop. As a matter of fact no one is going to see my dog coop but on the main road they're going to. So it's almost not fair. So I think we should have a lower number too. To let people say I built a chicken coop. My son Steve's got a chicken coop as well. You can put your hands around it. He didn't get a permit for it. Nobody said anything to him.

**Speaker 34:** He should have.

**Speaker 1:** But aren't there cultural buildings?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well we said that last time. Lori did because Lori worked for the town house a lot. These other people don't. It's a $15 house. And I know it's not the money. It's just that once we start making those rules and then we say well I didn't know I had to have one for a bird house. So Luke had ostriches at one time. I'm a bird so that's a bigger bird house. So we can go anywhere.

**Speaker 11:** Right?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So my point is and then we go we start forcing it. We go up and say you didn't get it. We're going to give you a fine now. Because the ones over $300 has a double the cost of the permit fine. Correct? So if it was $100 now it's $200. And you have to go through a process.

**Speaker 18:** Because you're denied for the first one.

**Speaker 16:** Right? Not necessarily denying it.

**Speaker 35:** But you stop work on it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I don't really want this is just my opinion. I just think that it's kind of like what we're talking about with the trash place up there. Recycling thing. I don't want to get it to the point where it's so hard to live in this small little town that we're nitpicking on small stuff. But on the other hand you're going to have the first person say well if there's a rule you have to follow the rule. And your job is hard because of that.

**Speaker 16:** So back before we started with different fees everything was basically $100. Right? Or $115. The AO got X amount and the town got the filing fee. Now I'm going crazy permitting these small structures for no fee. For me. It's a lot of work for a shed.

**Speaker 36:** But I'm thinking

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** well take your fee out of it right now. I don't have a fee. You just mentioned you don't get a fee. But are you saying that we should be having a fee for structures under 300 feet?

**Speaker 36:** Under

**Speaker 16:** 300 square feet? I think the AO whoever it is going to be moving forward I always say that should be compensated for their time. And I've said it four or five years ago I say it all the time everybody has a hybrid system. Where they're compensated for the hour and a portion of the fee. That's another discussion. And we decided not to do that. We talked about it. I mean

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I have a tough time going forward with that discussion if we don't go forward with the bylaws having a it has to be clear. And right now

**Speaker 38:** it's clear but it's not enforced.

**Speaker 31:** Your examples you're using are kind of off base because you're using agriculture which is a total different ball game. So I could build a 300 foot long building without a permit. Well a notice. Because I have a farm. A legal farm. And I could make pig runs as long as I want.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Are you putting in a notice though?

**Speaker 31:** Yes. I'm paying taxes

**Speaker 39:** on the value.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** But you do have to get a $15 notice. A permit.

**Speaker 39:** Well it's not a permit.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** It's a notification.

**Speaker 31:** But that's what we're talking about with all these sheds. They're not permits. We disagree on some things but one thing I do agree with is the compensation part. So I believe the AO has evolved over the past 10 years in the development where you know I was getting $35 if I remember right on a shed. I was getting $35 and you were getting I can't remember what it was. At some point though the shed I came before this board when I first became AO and said hey the state says that they can have just a notification they can have a 300 square foot. And I refused to charge people the $110 fee or we had a $35 shed fee. Why did you refuse it? Because you thought it was wrong? I didn't think it was wrong. It was wrong. It was against the law. Our bylaws were against the law? There was about six of them that were against the law. That's what I'm asking.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So that's what I'm saying. So we're talking if you want me to switch the examples I could. A treehouse that's not agricultural but it's a treehouse and I've seen some damn nice treehouses as a matter of fact someone one time stayed in a treehouse

**Speaker 39:** like an Airbnb that I know.

**Speaker 31:** And that has come up in a conversation at the planning commission. Treehouse is something that's going to be discussed.

**Speaker 38:** That's why we have to

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** we have to go back to the ground board again I said this earlier in a meeting we're not perfect but we're better than we were.

**Speaker 31:** But if you read the state law on treehouses a treehouse is defined as so the kind you don't need a permit for. A children's playground.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** But if you're staying in it like an Airbnb

**Speaker 31:** that's a little issue there. That's a tree dwelling. Tree dwelling.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I agree. I'm all for not making a damn guy

**Speaker 38:** get a permit for a treehouse.

**Speaker 31:** We just need some language changes in our bylaws. But our bylaws are correct. You don't need a permit for a treehouse.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Now what about the notice that we're talking about? Okay. So you said you could put a chicken coop 100 foot long. You come down you give her a notice $15 recorded fee. What Deb's saying is you do it now and you don't come down. And Deb goes well you needed to do that and you didn't do it. So she takes it as her job is to enforce the bylaws. Exactly. She comes down and she says Jim didn't get a filing fee. Oh well now what do we do next? That's where it starts getting gray.

**Speaker 16:** Case in point. The Methodist Church. They put a put a deck on the back of the church and didn't comply well and it was just it was actually egress from so they could get out the back. So they had egress and egress. So it was really just a way for them to get down. There was a landing and then the stairs. Well they didn't come in. They didn't get a permit. Would have been a $15 notice. However the way I mean the property line goes through the Methodist Church. I don't know if you're aware of that. No. So well at least on paper when you do the GIS mapping. So their porch or their stairs were on quote unquote Dottie's property. So they had to take. So I had to enforce them to take it down and move it to the other side.

**Speaker 35:** For zero fee. Right.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Did they get their $15 filing fee at that time? Yeah. So they got you went up. You enforced that. You told me you got to do this. You don't get the zero fee because we don't have that in place. Right. Or you do get the zero fee. You don't get any fee. Right. For the we don't have it in place. They did what you told them. Period. That's it. Yep. So what we need to do is go back to the drawing board now and say again just like you were saying is you agree that someone should be compensated for this work. For enforcing. For enforcing. You know I mean I could Well when you took the job you knew you weren't going to get it paid. Now I hear You used to get paid. Yeah. So now what

**Speaker 31:** happened? First of all when I first came on there was a I want to say $35 fee I have to go through my paperwork now. There was a $35 fee for a shed. Okay. Or $30. And I got $30 and the town got $5 for $5. Something like that. But it was definitely a

**Speaker 40:** sweat fee. But I think the other

**Speaker 19:** thing that if you don't come to our meetings or listen to our meetings kind of idea what we need to just you know to have a permit for and not have a permit for it kind of becomes a okay I don't need a permit to do this but then if we're going to start saying that we would like to unnotice situation does it now not behoove us to say you need to come down no matter what you're doing and fill out a I've always said that. But I'm just saying inside when you you know inside our bylaws it needs to say you need to file no matter what.

**Speaker 20:** You put a board up you should file. Yeah.

**Speaker 19:** So that way that starts process of being you being able to say it starts with a piece of paper with all the mapping and everything and you can just say okay here's your $15 fee you're done. And then you know what's happening. Are there But she doesn't get compensated for that.

**Speaker 16:** I'm just saying but you don't get compensated. I still have to go out and make sure they're placing the shed properly not on a not on somebody else's property line or

**Speaker 12:** Pardon? So it seems like it should be taxable or non-taxable. It's real simple. That's what I'm saying. If it's taxable we should have a fee you should get paid for administrating the whole thing. If it's not taxable

**Speaker 25:** the town shouldn't be involved in it. Period.

**Speaker 16:** But the state actually says under 300 square feet.

**Speaker 18:** That's what bothers me is what is a structure

**Speaker 16:** Like a structure under 300 square feet does not require

**Speaker 25:** a permit. That's taxable.

**Speaker 12:** It doesn't require it but can we require it as a town? Maybe the state's

**Speaker 41:** just being lenient and saying

**Speaker 19:** Again you can always have something greater than what the state says. Again agricultural

**Speaker 31:** if you go out there and you look at these beautiful homes that people were living in and they have cows and they have barns that are three times longer than their houses. The barn is being assessed and they're paying taxes on that barn. However of course it's a business and you know how that write off goes on. But according to Vermont their farm if they want to add on to that barn or put another barn up over there they can. And all's it would be would they be calling down and get a form and it's a taxable. It's part of your assessment right? So they'll have a fee for that and she gets her and that copy goes to the town assessor and we don't have one book.

**Speaker 12:** Yes we do. Up north. Pretty simple.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** But the state says we can't fee them for a agricultural

**Speaker 35:** structure. Yeah we can't charge a fee for it.

**Speaker 12:** So we gotta pay debt out of nothing. They still need to come out and get a permit right? Even if they're not paying we pay debt.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** We'd have to pay debt out of a different budget.

**Speaker 31:** I suggest to the select board is to consider agricultural permits or notifications to the AO should be a flat fee of X or whatever. Or an hourly rate of however long it takes. Deb is correct. I spent hours on a basic permit. If somebody comes down with no issues whatsoever and Lori would tell you she used to yell at me all the time I would take the permit.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Make a copy of that. Don't take out the original. Some are still gone. Some are still missing.

**Speaker 37:** Not for you.

**Speaker 31:** But anyways I walk out the door I go to the location I would look to where it was at and I'm sure there's people in this room that I've been to their house I know there's one for sure and it's like you just go there you have to put eyes on it. If you don't know what you're talking about

**Speaker 38:** you can't complain.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I have no problem with what you guys are talking about. I have a problem with the definitions they're calling a structure.

**Speaker 39:** I would say four or five hours

**Speaker 31:** I mean what's that? I'd say four or five hours minimum of the amount of time that we would put it on a basic

**Speaker 42:** What is a structure?

**Speaker 23:** What is a structure?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yup. What is a structure? Well I know that.

**Speaker 18:** But is a clothesline a structure?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** A fence can be. A fence can be? Again we'll go back to a birdhouse. I'm sorry I'm dragging this out but it's pissing me off

**Speaker 19:** that it's not defined. But that's the thing I keep being the planning commission person we talk about this all the time is that the definition of everything I think is the beginning of our bylaws. If we don't have definitions for things then we don't have a leg to stand on and it becomes especially for Deb a great area where she's got to say I think this is what it is but I'm saying you need to be able to say

**Speaker 20:** this is what these things are.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I don't think you should have to go and say is that doghouse there.

**Speaker 35:** Can I

**Speaker 16:** this may have to be executive session but so right now the way we have it I get half the town gets half. Why can't that half go into a separate fund to be reconciled at the end of the year or whatever and for these little things

**Speaker 35:** draw out because that half went up

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** the half went up the town is getting more and you're getting more that number went up so the town in order to it still only costs $15 for the town to file a permit whether it's a big permit or a small permit really it doesn't cost the town anymore so the town is getting more money than they were before but the actual action is the same thing we just do a filing so you're saying that fund where does that money go now when that fund is just going back

**Speaker 12:** in a general fund you should only be permitting things that are taxable so you're going to get more money out of that property because of the tax it may not be right there black and white

**Speaker 43:** but you're getting money here

**Speaker 16:** it should be the incentive of the town to encourage the zoning administrator to go out and do this if we're going to be taxing them I mean you would know I put it under Lucy there the rock it's a rock it's Lucy so how much of course we don't know a little shed would actually add to the value of the property

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** understandable I think that and I agree with Dave if it is taxable then we should get and you need to do a follow up you need to put eyes on it if you're spending time doing that you should get paid I agree with that I'm saying we should make sure that the structures that are not taxable that are a waste of your time shouldn't be on there at all and that's what I'm trying to figure out

**Speaker 16:** what is a structure that's not taxable I'm asking the answer

**Speaker 12:** I guess I don't know when you go around and assess some of these properties so why would you tax them and if you put it on the property between you and your neighbor

**Speaker 23:** that's a civil thing

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** just like a guy's life

**Speaker 12:** why does the town have to get involved

**Speaker 31:** you don't need a permit for a fence unless it's over 8 feet and it's like nobody applies there I don't know what you're getting at

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I guess what I'm getting at is we should define that these other structures I'm bringing up because I don't think that it's clear what Dave's job is you get a shed and you have a shed big enough to put a lawn mower in versus a shed that is big enough to put tractors in what's considered a shed versus anything under 300 square feet right

**Speaker 31:** so how small can it be the bylaws are not bylaws but the state laws

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** it is what it is any structure under 300 square foot is a structure so we go back to I hate to keep beating you guys up but I go back to a dog house it's a structure you put a cover over your well you see people put a nice cover over the well but it's under 300 square feet

**Speaker 31:** they don't need a permit

**Speaker 44:** they need a notice

**Speaker 19:** but you need a notice I'm not trying to argue I'm just saying

**Speaker 16:** I understand

**Speaker 25:** you put a little cover over your well

**Speaker 12:** if it's not taxable I could come up with a million different

**Speaker 25:** examples

**Speaker 16:** and that's the problem we need to have the assessor come in here and say

**Speaker 5:** we don't tax that

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** what is the state law does the assessing law say you have to tax these structures

**Speaker 5:** I would love to hear from her

**Speaker 11:** let me look at it in a different way

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** so I want the AO to get compensated for her job but I also don't want to waste their time or waste the town's money on a stupid thing

**Speaker 33:** that doesn't need to be taxed

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** and then we're not taxing it at the end anyway

**Speaker 19:** so are we only noticing these things because of

**Speaker 1:** our town wants this to happen

**Speaker 45:** or something else

**Speaker 1:** what is the state defining as a taxable

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** that's what I've got here when he says a structure under 300 square foot 50 square foot

**Speaker 39:** 10 square foot

**Speaker 31:** our local bylaws indicate what's what then that's what we're working on now supposedly if it's not in the state law then we have to write something that's a little bit stricter and we need to go back and do that

**Speaker 1:** because it's not there

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** so I think the thing is we've got to find out what the law is what is taxed

**Speaker 19:** what gets taxed but if you feel like you still even when things are noticed

**Speaker 16:** that you have to go out and take a look at it

**Speaker 46:** then we can have the discussion

**Speaker 19:** we still need to fix that part I feel like that's your actual question

**Speaker 18:** what's a standard

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** permit for a house how much is that now

**Speaker 47:** $350

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** so it's $175 is what you get

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** $150 $150 because a 15 is

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I know how to do math so it's $150

**Speaker 16:** once a year

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** so $150 and you take about 4-5 hours to do that permit

**Speaker 16:** I keep going back and checking the progress when the excavator's there I want to see where they're digging the puddings or digging the basement I like to go in the concrete's being poured that's the house

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** 4-5 hours is justified

**Speaker 16:** or is it more than that it's probably more in the grand scheme of things because I do a lot of work before I go there

**Speaker 35:** with the parcel

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** the only reason I'm asking is it was 5 hours

**Speaker 35:** or $30 an hour

**Speaker 16:** it's probably more like going back and forth it's almost a half an hour by the time I get lost to find the place

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** and then there's others that are easier but we're looking between $25 and $30 an hour is what we're paying so the reason I'm getting at that

**Speaker 35:** is

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I guess we could go into executive session but what I'm saying is maybe we should look at a different structure

**Speaker 18:** of payment I did propose it

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** way back

**Speaker 11:** we'll talk about that

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** we can stop there for now

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** we have another not a problem penalty for not filing the notice of a permit

**Speaker 22:** we don't have that

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** so are we going to do something about that I don't know

**Speaker 12:** can we how far are you going to go back

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** we're not going back

**Speaker 15:** we're starting now

**Speaker 12:** let's just say somebody has a chicken coop you didn't get a permit

for that chicken coop 10 years ago

**Speaker 1:** no no no

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** it's grandfathered it's a grandfathered challenge let's just say it's grandfathered today it starts today we would have to catch you putting a new system in in the act

**Speaker 19:** so if we're going to do this notification situation so that we know things are happening to begin with then for her time one I think we need to make sure that the people in town know no matter what you do you need to fill out a permit even if it's called a notification whatever you call it it needs to happen no matter what it is putting up a pool that kind of things that don't technically need permits

**Speaker 3:** I always tell people to call me we tried that and asked what you're doing that doesn't need a permit and I'm telling them anyway so that she can write on it

**Speaker 48:** and they don't waste their time

**Speaker 19:** but if we do state the fact that we want you as a notification to the town this is what you're doing to your property that's a whole different subject and if we say that we need this for you

**Speaker 20:** to do it

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** let me ask you a question I don't want to throw a wrench in it there are permits that need permits and there's notifications for $15 then there are other things you might say well you don't need it either is that a true statement?

**Speaker 18:** so that's where I'm having a problem

**Speaker 16:** farm structures look at Stephanie's place how many crazy things went

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** shits, barns so those ones that don't need anything and you tell them they gotta come down they're gonna come down and say well you don't need anything and that's where I get nervous because then we go back into that word of mouth where they said oh well you don't need that and then you get in trouble

**Speaker 16:** well and that's why I think that was the justification for having an email for me so that if people had a question do I need a permit for this

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I can document it I said no on his email

**Speaker 16:** like Nate Tatro when he was digging the trench down at Billmont he came to me do I need a permit I said well it's probably best if you go fill something out but no you're digging the trench and he didn't come and fill it out and he dug the trench

once you guys know what's taxable and what's not from the assessor it can be a lot clearer you can basically say anything under this square feet

**Speaker 12:** doesn't need it's not taxed therefore it doesn't need a permit the town should not care I don't know why we want anything

**Speaker 16:** and does the assessor they go up to a camp put boots on the ground they have to look so they see a shed are they going to take the time to go back here and pull the card and say that shed wasn't here last year we have to tax it do they do that they do look at the card but for a shed

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I was taxed for my shed at my camp now I don't know if they went back into a card but I was taxed for that time that I brought her up to my camp and she taxed me for it I'm not bringing her up again but they did get me for an accessory my son built a utility shed probably under 300 square foot but he built it and there was no permits for that he was up there a lot he decided that's what he wanted to do I had a permit for the camp but then he built a shed up there and then when the new people went up there I brought her up I didn't know I brought her up and she said you've got this

**Speaker 12:** and then they measured my little shed interesting so there's your answer they measured my greenhouse when they came around

**Speaker 23:** and asked how I measured that but there are questionable things

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** you know campers there's questionable things on that if a camper's in your yard it's not taxed it's on wheels you can move it but then you've got

**Speaker 16:** campers out in the woods they've been there for 40 years you sell it to your child

**Speaker 18:** or something

**Speaker 16:** then I can take the taxes off so then you have to come to the town

**Speaker 35:** and tell them it's gone

**Speaker 18:** and is there a form for that

**Speaker 16:** no

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** so there's some tweaking there's a good discussion we all have we've got to sit down and tweak things in I think that finding what's taxable is awesome and then looking at the way the payment structure is maybe another idea

**Speaker 38:** and you guys have

**Speaker 31:** a lot of issues about permitting and all of that stuff you should come to the planning commission when we're brainstorming on on you know things that you'd like to see changed in the bylaws because we can't think of everything

**Speaker 37:** I know

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** as soon as you pass the zoning bylaw something else comes up

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** a lot of times I know we should come but a lot of times Kurt is kind of a liaison for the planning he helps out a lot he takes whatever we say and you just pass us a note he does

**Speaker 30:** if you think of something

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** just send us a note just like Dave said tonight we should work together he's right if there was I think sometimes we all take things out of content but if there was time where his name was mentioned

**Speaker 18:** that's good

**Speaker 16:** I actually mentioned it because I read the minute from the conservation commission and I brought it up to you guys because it literally said that that the town is looking into a wastewater system

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** you asked the question

**Speaker 11:** I did I asked the question

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** maybe it should have been written the conservation commission or the planning commission

**Speaker 22:** is looking into it

**Speaker 36:** you don't think of that

**Speaker 16:** and his name was mentioned in it so I said it no no

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** it wasn't derogatory if we all worked together

**Speaker 19:** it would be a lot easier just the last thing sorry the whole notification thing I'm back to that I understand but could that not be a way to for your land being taxed and what you're being taxed on could that not be this is under 300 so that whoever is doing our tax evaluation you will not be taxed on this no matter what if that becomes our notification so that when they come down here and they have everything it would stop his greenhouse from being put in there we don't tax them on this we don't even look at it because we're wasting money I think that was also part of the when we had this whole evaluation situation you feel like they were looking at anything that they thought could be taxed they taxed there's nothing to say to them that no you don't tax on these certain things and so if we say that the notification part will help dictate what you get charged in your taxes with I think anyone and everyone will come down and fill one out

**Speaker 49:** just because

**Speaker 46:** it's saving their money

**Speaker 16:** if it's movable you don't need a permit for it it's always been always been the kind of status quo if I can move it, if it's on wheels

**Speaker 46:** I don't get taxed on it

**Speaker 19:** and if we're not going to be doing it ourselves which I don't see us ever being able to do it on ourselves that we need to have something to tell whoever's doing this that this is how our taxes are yeah we're not going to go back to that we're lucky to have anybody we're back to the AO needs to have a better structure for how we get paid but I think we also need to help define that for everybody else or we're just going to constantly be doing this over and over and over again

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** so what I'm going to ask is what gets taxed who makes a lot of what gets taxed what gets taxed

**Speaker 22:** and movable

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** can we set those to a point can the town say we're not going to tax that whatever it is let's just say a swimming pool pretty soon

the state's going to be taking over all of it I know

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I was kind of thinking that we might be able to

**Speaker 21:** but above ground we can pay

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** you don't have to

**Speaker 16:** no above grounds that are going to be there year after year after year are taxable kiddie pools are not above grounds if you leave it up year round

**Speaker 18:** they're taxable

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** could we I'm not saying we will

**Speaker 16:** could we as a town change that

**Speaker 35:** I don't know

**Speaker 16:** or does the state mandate it that's why I'm saying they're slowly getting to the point where the state will be taking over the taxation they're going to

**Speaker 50:** taking over the tennis courts

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** yeah but it takes 50 years so we don't have none of us have to worry about that

**Speaker 16:** I mean isn't that what Beth Miller alluded to that I mean the state everything you don't really you just put in the data I just put in the transfer from you to valuation VP VTPI the department

**Speaker 5:** the VPR

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** PVR so another problem that came up this week was on our building permits the application for building permit or conditional use right is that what it said for the title there's no fee in our fee structure for conditional use I know I said did we miss that we must have but even the title

**Speaker 16:** I know the title says conditional use

**Speaker 35:** but there's no fee

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** so can we set can we set that tonight

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I think we can put it at zero

**Speaker 16:** no no I think it should follow follow the commercial commercial industrial

**Speaker 31:** conditional use conditional use

**Speaker 16:** it has to go but we still have to collect it

**Speaker 51:** but what about

**Speaker 31:** I can't do it

**Speaker 16:** but they have to pay another

**Speaker 19:** what is it for going to the

**Speaker 16:** commercial well they have to go to some you may have to go to the planning commission first and then to the ZBA

**Speaker 31:** so we should start charging a fee too with the planning commission

**Speaker 51:** or do

**Speaker 16:** I think it's coming up well you take too much pay you guys take too much pay I don't take that pay we change

**Speaker 36:** you always be into

**Speaker 16:** commercial or industrial no I'm just saying set the fee around the same amount that would be a change of use doesn't always go into commercial but a change of use it could be

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** well I guess they're mostly single family addition to multi-family dwelling

**Speaker 22:** could be a yeah

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** what else could it be

**Speaker 11:** we can't think of it right now

**Speaker 31:** we can't think of it right now what's that

**Speaker 37:** a church into a residence

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** so we don't that's a change of use what would happen that would be a change of use that's just it so it's say it's residential going into a church or residential going into a business

**Speaker 16:** which we're going to be I'm hoping we can get this set relatively quickly because I think that's going to happen soon

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** so what would we say change of use

**Speaker 5:** which is really conditional use

**Speaker 16:** it's a conditional use I always say that we don't have change of use

**Speaker 18:** it should be the same

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** like you said

**Speaker 35:** commercial fees

**Speaker 16:** I mean it's not we're talking

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'm going to start a business

**Speaker 16:** and you're going to charge me 200 bucks

**Speaker 35:** I'm going to build a house

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** you're going to charge me

**Speaker 31:** here's my million dollar house and here's your 200 bucks I think if it's a commercial

**Speaker 52:** and it's a business

**Speaker 19:** that should be something we don't even have that kind of structure in our town it's difficult

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** because right now single family dwelling is 315 dollars single family addition is another fee multifamily dwelling then you've got your commercial industrial

**Speaker 3:** 315 so if we just add another category

**Speaker 11:** conditional use

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** 315 just do it

**Speaker 31:** the thing is though when you're talking about conditional use you just named a bunch of things right

**Speaker 39:** so you better define it

**Speaker 31:** yeah I mean those three names that you just mentioned

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** two of them were conditional use what the single family no church to residence or residence to church or residence how about a residence to a business like like Christopher Laney down there it's a house now maybe somebody wants to change it into a store

**Speaker 11:** into a store

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** but that doesn't count as a home business

**Speaker 16:** as part of your home they want a real store

**Speaker 31:** that's called a home occupation but if another bill box came in or something that would be

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** conditional use

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** it should be more you're putting another bill box in like I said we don't tax them there's no commercial tax we tax them just like the same structure we measure it there you go go down to North Adams

**Speaker 11:** see what happens

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** $42 a thousand

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** you got to make a motion

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** highest in Berkshire County

**Speaker 22:** got to make a motion

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** to set the fee $315 for conditional use

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** second all in favor aye I mean the title is on the permit just never

**Speaker 26:** just never

**Speaker 6:** get that going

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** how did we miss it oh because it hasn't come up until now and that's the problem with the zoning bylaws we can't think of all this until we come up

**Speaker 16:** it is kind of I know we're running late but I frequently I get it in my head what needs to happen I run it by the BCRC this guy he just thinks we're kind of funny over here but I come up with some pretty interesting questions and he's like oh my god your bylaws don't even touch on it yeah

**Speaker 36:** why not

**Speaker 22:** how did we miss that

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** they think we're funny but a lot of times

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** just don't ask the questions

**Speaker 31:** that's true when we're looking for bylaws I've downloaded I don't know how many bylaws and let me tell you something we ain't alone

**Speaker 19:** that's what I'm saying they don't ask the questions and sometimes people don't show up and so I mean you can do whatever you want

**Speaker 16:** well not really if you don't have bylaws

**Speaker 19:** you are bound by the state I'm just saying in general

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** your neighbor has to call on the state the state has to come down find time to do it I mean I personally am not a big fan of a lot of restrictions I think that we should definitely live in a town that we can build a tree house and hopefully our kids can stay outside and not use the cell phones

**Speaker 31:** one thing we've got to eliminate and it's like I fought for it the whole time I was VAO and that's what's good for you it's good for him right and it's like don't do that because I don't like that person that stuff is not happening no more thank god

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** no I can tell you before I was a resident at Stamford I had my camp and it did happen back then

**Speaker 31:** oh it happened when I was here

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I actually got in an argument with the VAO because there was already a permit for the ex-owner and then I had some resistance and I go this permit is good for one year and it's still open I bought the property with the permit and luckily the people that were on the ZVA knew who I was and they said he's right I got my permit but I was a newcomer I came into the town and I felt like I had a hard time

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I will find out I'll find out these answers

**Speaker 16:** ok thank you guys for the time I appreciate it

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** and then we'll keep going alright zoning fees sign request for proposal for reappraisal

**Speaker 3:** yeah um it didn't happen because I've been knee deep in tax bills so I should have printed it all out

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** it's ready to go but I didn't we did look at it last time I think the only issue we had was the utilities that I had a problem with but they are set by the state the power lines video

so if you're ok with Nancy signing it

**Speaker 3:** tomorrow or

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** whenever tax bills get out

**Speaker 19:** do we need a motion on that thing?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** yes we do need a motion

**Speaker 19:** motion to let Nancy sign when the time happens

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** all in favor ok dogs dogs

**Speaker 3:** alright so we're down to six people

**Speaker 47:** yes

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Danny used to say shoot them

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** not the dogs ok who are I'm asking in a meeting because they got the letter from Luke

**Speaker 3:** and he did come and drop off the notice of the fine that were sent out

**Speaker 53:** so I have that for our files

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** and it's fifteen late you're late you've got to register your dog and it's according to our ordinance it's fifty dollars per violation so

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** twenty bucks sixteen

**Speaker 1:** fifteen bucks

**Speaker 30:** ready to go again since January

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** we've given him the entire the irritation is not the money

**Speaker 11:** so read them off

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** let's hear read them off because I'd like them in the minutes

**Speaker 3:** they were in the minutes last year Stacy Abusi two dogs Rochelle Blow one dog Robert Briggs two dogs Jamie Cusa three dogs one dog

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** ok they will go in the minutes Luke has sent them the notice we have one person that refused to pay the fine he had four dogs he refused to pay the fine do we send them a civil do we say this fee is not going to be waived here you go no

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** what is our fee fifty dollars

**Speaker 22:** fifty dollars

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** what's the next step

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** the next step the court

**Speaker 3:** follow procedure taxes the whole point is to get a dumb dog registered so I registered the dog and said if you want to ask the site board to waive the fee because those four dogs you're looking at extra two hundred dollars yup with our dog ordinance so I don't think we can take him to court

**Speaker 54:** let's send him a letter

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I think that if you pay a fine it would go it would literally if you don't pay a speeding ticket then you get a fine for that then eventually it will get worse if you go to court so this is a

**Speaker 11:** municipality that owes us money it will go to the civil court

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** because if the person came to the select board came in and said hey look I paid it I don't have the money and the hardship something like that instead of saying I'm not paying it so I don't know how it went down but there's a big difference to make and if we it's like setting a precedence on a camp that doesn't want to pay their taxes cost us money to go to court and we lost money but if we didn't go to court we'd have a line of people

**Speaker 20:** that are not paying our taxes

**Speaker 19:** but if you allow it to go that far that you're actually being paid you're getting fined have you not now done it to yourself and so responsibility states have done this it's not our fault

**Speaker 1:** also the whole concept

behind people registering their homes

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** is to ensure they've been vaccinated for safety

**Speaker 11:** the state makes the students

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** and if we waive this or ignore this back to what Dave said

**Speaker 11:** why do we have any laws at all

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I hate to say it

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** can you send them a letter

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** saying that we discussed it there'll be more fees attached to this I don't know where we go from but if we go to court

**Speaker 22:** it will go to the civil

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** we could attach it to their home I never saw their house $50 or $400 if that isn't in place where there's tax fees or interest or something put that in place just like if you don't pay your taxes it continues and continues until Sally comes in has to post it on your door they have an option to come in and ask for a debate on those fees and plead their case and if that's what they want to do we have a court system that can do that

**Speaker 19:** plead their case you didn't leave doesn't mean you're off the hook now

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** but he had so many chances

**Speaker 19:** once you got to the point where you're being fined it's your own stupidity I'm sorry you know this from the beginning when we first send you the note please come down and register your dogs how many dogs do we usually register

**Speaker 55:** 300 something like that

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** so in the first wave after we send that notice out we get 200 and something dogs are registered it's not fair to those people until September it's not fair period my son's dog is gone

**Speaker 22:** he didn't die

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** the biter he only bites people he doesn't like

**Speaker 11:** so Joyce doesn't have to go up and feed him

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Joyce found a lady that wanted him she raises beagles she took him and the dog was awesome with her I go near the dog if he bites you he has to kill me

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** so next meeting you're going to ask Jonathan Cooper to come that's the 17th alright

**Speaker 22:** 6 o'clock

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** one other thing I'd like to have people aware of Lori is mailing tax bills they're due November 19th please get them in the mail at least a week ahead of time because or bring them here in the drop box that's what I would do

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** hand them right to her I wouldn't even put them in that drop box

**Speaker 35:** there you go

**Speaker 56:** it's too expensive

**Speaker 54:** don't count on the mail

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** taxes are high so when the percentage is it

**Speaker 31:** it adds up quick what about the people that our mortgage company is paying

**Speaker 3:** so the mortgage company will overnight mail to me I'll call them and make sure

yes check with Lori

**Speaker 31:** to make sure they're paid

**Speaker 37:** and get a check down

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** even if you have to

**Speaker 4:** give Lori a check the day of

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** they're responsible I'd just

**Speaker 57:** slam my mortgage company

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** and be like here's my money you pay it got it or be at a different bank the next day there's still a few banks you can talk to not as many as you they're merging though

**Speaker 31:** everybody's merging

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** get bigger and bigger donate I got three guys what do you want it for put it on your front lawn anchor there's a big anchor in there cash that baby in I gotta buy a new tarp if I don't sell that you know what that tarp costs it's like 1500 bucks

**Speaker 11:** are we all set then

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I think we're good I'm all set

**Speaker 53:** I'm not quite set

**Speaker 3:** oh I'm sorry

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** justice of the peace

**Speaker 3:** quite some time ago we made a recommendation to the governor to appoint someone who was interested in serving and I got a call from the governor's office saying the governor really likes a couple of people and we'd like to have a nomination from your democratic party and your republican party

because this person is an independent and then the governor can choose I said we don't have

**Speaker 1:** those parties we don't have that many people in town

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** you're lucky to have people we have someone from the bull moose party down there

**Speaker 16:** but that's it are you talking about like Natalie so she hasn't been appointed yet

**Speaker 54:** I said look

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** do they realize where Stamford is what we are

**Speaker 3:** I mean I said to them look in August all the justice of the peace had to turn in their nomination papers anybody could have taken out papers no one else did

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** we don't ask

**Speaker 47:** whether or not you're

**Speaker 3:** can Jonathan Cooper solve this for us

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** well they can hear about it they can hear about it that's insane day peace could run as a write in but Natalie's already got her name Sharon took papers out so that's good that she didn't wait she didn't wait to be appointed

**Speaker 19:** but then again the rule being that you can replace but you cannot if you have an empty spot you can't put somebody in there so this is a replacing situation the governor's got to do it but by can't they replace it it's insane

**Speaker 3:** so if she runs in November which she will be she won't be able to start until February 1st

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** well why don't you tell us the governor we had no comments we put it out there not one person showed up for what I don't think people come out of Woodward

**Speaker 22:** and say whoa we didn't know

**Speaker 11:** stop it we don't have anybody else

**Speaker 19:** oh for day peace nobody else came forward I don't care

**Speaker 45:** we would have sent the names in

**Speaker 1:** to the governor we need a J.P.

**Speaker 30:** period done

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** he might not get our 200 votes

**Speaker 12:** that keeps it up

**Speaker 19:** anything else it started with Sally motion to adjourn

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** are you all set

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** too late we already adjourned

**Speaker 22:** I didn't ask you any discussion

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** all in favor aye that's alright

gotta practice for when I'm gone so is this off the record now

**Speaker 3:** no

nothing is ever off the record with me