---
title: "Stamford Select Board — May 5, 2026"
date: 2026-05-05
session: joint-school
speaker_labels: 1 cluster(s) named from the roll call and that meeting's chair in the minutes, 1 named from roster attendance, 10 of 12 clusters unnamed
voice_ids: {"SPEAKER_00":43,"SPEAKER_01":3,"SPEAKER_02":104,"SPEAKER_03":15,"SPEAKER_04":4,"SPEAKER_06":16,"SPEAKER_07":40,"SPEAKER_08":26,"SPEAKER_09":1,"SPEAKER_10":2,"SPEAKER_11":41,"SPEAKER_13":105}
duration_min: 95
audio: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-oW9phvIoxOjLWvWyMsTaHQW51-whS3i/view?usp=sharing
audio_source: town drive
minutes: https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Sbd%20Minutes%205-5-26%20special%20mtg%20with%20School%20%26%20Library.pdf
minutes_pending: false
present: [Nancy L. Bushika, Michael G. Denault, Kurt Gamari, Jedidiah Gramlin]
absent: [Joseph Caruso]
transcribed: 2026-09-04 (faster-whisper large-v3, CUDA; names corrected per data/name_fixes.json)
diarization: pyannote/speaker-diarization-3.1 (automated; cluster labels may over-split a single voice; unattributed paragraphs have no reliable speaker)
---

# Stamford Select Board — May 5, 2026

**Session:** Joint School · **Duration:** 95 min · [Audio](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-oW9phvIoxOjLWvWyMsTaHQW51-whS3i/view?usp=sharing) · [Minutes](https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Sbd%20Minutes%205-5-26%20special%20mtg%20with%20School%20%26%20Library.pdf)

**Present:** Nancy L. Bushika, Michael G. Denault, Kurt Gamari, Jedidiah Gramlin
**Absent:** Joseph Caruso

---
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible,

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** with liberty and justice for all. A special meeting of the Stamford Direct Board. If you have a matter to discuss that is not included on the agenda, you may do so by addressing your chairperson and stating your name and address. The reason for the gathering tonight is so we're all on the same page on shared use of the building and what's going on.

**Speaker 1:** I know there's- Open lines of communication.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Good one, Kirk. I like that.

**Speaker 2:** Yeah, moving forward.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Moving forward, open lines of communication, I like that. I think it could have been handled differently and before the library had to close, I think we're all in a small town. We have this one beautiful big building. We, I don't think any of us can afford to move out of this building and have a separate town office, a separate library. The townspeople will never, never, can't afford it. So I think we've got to work together, try to share the space the best we can. That's my opinion.

**Speaker 1:** Do we feel like we need some kind of written agreement as far as shared use?

**Speaker 3:** Well, I was going to bring up the fact that if you want to do one of Bill's- Letters, he said that he was going to talk to the school board about a memorandum of agreement. Of understanding. Of understanding agreement, I think it's different than that. But I think that would probably be the best way to go because then we can say that the town can use a library from 12 to 3. You can actually lay everything out so that there isn't any gray areas anymore. And I almost think that's what we have to do.

**Speaker 4:** Well, will we write that agreement to the point where we each say what we do for one another? I think that would be the thing. And so where you maintain the grass and you mow and you do the outside, the plowing, all that would be outlined as well.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I don't think we need anything formal legally. Do we need to go to the attorney? Because once you get into that, to me it's too-

**Speaker 5:** So one of the things I did, I ended up doing a lot of research. And one of the things is that any document that we sign, whether it's called a memorandum of understanding, whether it's called a memorandum of agreement, whether it's called a schmorgenhofen, if it has the elements of contract, it's a legal contract. And so, I mean, I'm not thrilled with the idea of hiring lawyers, but also as people with fiduciary responsibility to our various organizations, I worry about signing anything. Anything that is a contract without legal review. And so I'm curious as to what we can do to get legal review in a less expensive way. But I think we need legal review.

**Speaker 1:** I guess on my concern, I'll just throw it out there, is that the library is just the beginning, right? Is there then going to be a situation where it affects town offices, right? Are we going to have to close certain hours and only be able to operate certain hours because the school is in operation, for example? I guess is it just an overall move? Is it just the first move in a bigger game where it's just total control of the building at whatever times are you tired?

**Speaker 4:** Let's not call it a move. We weren't playing chess. Sure. Nobody was trying to do anything nefarious. I believe there had been times in the past that the space has been used. There's been an understanding of that nature in the past. Whatever went wrong this time, I don't think we're here to rehash any of that. I think we just need to be more exact with our request maybe and working together with just knowing that there's a public side as well as a school side.

**Speaker 6:** I think the other thing, too, that would take some of the...

**Speaker 3:** bite out of the situation is if you had come to the library board and said, Hey, we need to use the library. Having somebody who is not really part of the school board or telling us that we can do this or that. To do this or that, I think that added a level of a little bit of resentment or a game situation because he is the superintendent. He's not technically the school board.

**Speaker 4:** No, he's not the school board, but he is a duly authorized agent of the school board as well as the principal. So an ask from either...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Can I have you say that again? Of the school board or of the school?

**Speaker 4:** Of the school board.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** He is an officer of the school board. That's what you're saying?

**Speaker 4:** I said he's a duly authorized agent of the school board.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Of the school board. By whose authority?

**Speaker 4:** Well, we would do his hiring. We'd do his evaluation. In a group with all the boards in the district.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Are all the teachers the same way?

**Speaker 4:** I don't know how that falls. I don't want to even speculate on that.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So a teacher could also send a letter to the librarian? No, I don't believe so. There's a chain of command. What I'm saying is... Excuse me, my voice. I can hear that. I have lots of words tonight.

**Speaker 7:** No way.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I agree with our representative to the town.

**Speaker 4:** Understood.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** When a... Outside source, whether it's the union, superintendent, principal, makes a request to a town building, it doesn't fly. Why? And this is not only the school board. Who was elected by the people of Stafford, been left out of situations since the superintendent's been involved. That's what I'm concerned about. It seems that there's been other instances where the superintendent, notified the slide board for certain things, and the school board was oblivious of it. How do you people feel about that? What do you think your duty is to the town?

**Speaker 4:** Well, we know our duty is to the town.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** What is that duty?

**Speaker 4:** Well, we are elected to run the building, oversee the education of the children, and in a financially responsible way.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay, so do you agree that the superintendent, Okay, so do you agree that the superintendent, Okay, so do you agree that the superintendent, should communicate through you, through the board? Actually, you're the chair, but the board actually makes the decisions. It's like our board does. I can't just go on my own and make a decision.

**Speaker 4:** Mike, if I said how I feel, I don't feel that that was out of the ordinary to have Bill do that ask.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay, so there's many people that disagree.

**Speaker 4:** Obviously there are. Yeah. But I don't find it's out of the ordinary, that he made that ask. Whether he was making something easier for the principal, or just wanting to do it himself to make sure it got done, I couldn't tell you.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** He seems to want to do a lot of things himself.

**Speaker 8:** Well, I think part of the problem was that I wasn't there,

**Speaker 1:** but from what I gathered of it was the tone of the ask. It didn't seem like an ask. It seemed more like a demand.

**Speaker 9:** Three days before the effect.

**Speaker 4:** I mean, I guess I said this earlier, and then we went down the wrong path again. Because if we want to go over all the communication, that's fine. I'm going to have to excuse myself and leave. Because I wasn't at the beginning of that communication. And so if you want those delved into, then you need the right people here that will do that. If you want to go forward in a more amicable way, in a more amicable nature, we can continue the meeting. But I can't speak to, nor should anyone read a tone into any kind of electronic communication.

**Speaker 1:** Well, I was just going by the open meeting we had in the minutes that were, you know.

**Speaker 10:** So moving forward.

**Speaker 3:** Right from that.

**Speaker 11:** I think Dan had.

**Speaker 3:** Oh, I just, Mike, if you really care. It's Title 16 under education of the VSA in 242 is the superintendent's role. Everything they can do in that gives basically him all the power in the world. To the school. To the school.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Not to a town office. No.

**Speaker 4:** I'm not seeing it that way.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I know I come across like that, but I'm just saying.

**Speaker 4:** I was going to say, if you give me any trouble, we're going to go toe to toe.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I give up. But I'm just saying is that I feel, and that's just like you said, you feel. I feel that the communication, and I think the board, should go back to the superintendent and let them know how the people of the downfield and the other boards did it. There should be more communication through the school board. Everybody should be involved in this. He notified the librarian, not the trustees, but the librarian three days. It was three business days, I believe, before the event. But they knew they needed tested way before that. This is, and that was just one instance. There's other instances where he walked us around looking at safety issues in the school. School board knew nothing about it. You had a meeting that very night, and nobody knew about it. These things should be addressed. I don't think the slide board should have to address them. I think the school board should.

**Speaker 4:** I thank you for your opinion, and we have. Janet. Amy.

**Speaker 5:** Sorry, your mom.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yeah, my mom.

**Speaker 5:** Yes. I just wanted to differentiate a little bit in that he's in the, he's an agent of the Supervisory Union, and his legal responsibility is to them. And so if there is a point where there's a conflict of interest between our school and the Supervisory Union, he is obligated to take the part of the Supervisory Union. So I'm not saying that that was the case here, but it is a thing that I think it's important to keep an eye on. I think Julie is the much clearer direct agent

**Speaker 12:** of our school board because she is just, she's more in our community.

**Speaker 13:** Yeah, exactly.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** And I think she has a better way of communicating too about her. She might get her answer, but not through a demanding way, and just her way is a little bit easier.

**Speaker 3:** And I think the other thing too is that if we all understand our roles, we can then know who to, I'm notifying and how things work, because it's not knowing that, you know, if you don't know how the chain works, you're always going to sit there and go, why is this happening? Why is that happening? So I think, I think that's probably what we're doing right now is more just trying to figure out who does what, and where, and when, and not actually rehashing anything. At least that's the way I see it.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Just so you know. Do we want to open this up?

**Speaker 11:** I mean, this is a meeting here, but okay.

**Speaker 3:** I also think since she is the next trustee person. Oh, you're a trustee.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Not yet, but she is. Yeah, yes, yes, sorry.

**Speaker 14:** So, question is that school use, I don't, does school just go, you put students in the library when the library is not open and the student is not supervised?

**Speaker 15:** The library is closed and there's unsupervised kids in the library?

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

**Speaker 13:** I don't know that. I think, in what context? In what context? Just free running around? During a school day.

**Speaker 14:** See, that's what I.

**Speaker 13:** For a purpose, testing and some other services.

**Speaker 14:** Just for, yeah, I would, either, either, either or. There have been instances, and I only know this coming from not being in the library, where things are arranged or books are off the shelf or whatever, and I don't know if that student is in the library. I realize it's a thing, but if you're going to discuss the use of the library, you know, can the school just put students in the library and supervise? I guess that's a simple way to do that.

**Speaker 1:** They would have hours, right? The school has library hours.

**Speaker 14:** But just from the outside, I assume, yeah.

**Speaker 1:** Someone would have to open the library.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** So, moving forward, what are we going to do here? Are we just going to talk? Better communication?

**Speaker 1:** Yeah.

**Speaker 16:** I mean, we need some.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Do we need something, something written? I don't really want to go legal. I know. Did not, was it not mentioned that we had access to legal review of anything we put out there that would be covered by the supervisory unit or some organization? I thought that when it comes to my.

**Speaker 17:** No.

**Speaker 13:** Only if it, if it pertains to the supervisory unit. All right. Yes. All right. We'll do it. Do you have a hole in your waist? No. No. No. No.

**Speaker 4:** No. No. No. No.

No.

**Speaker 4:** No.

**Speaker 1:** No. Does it weigh? Does it go through the water?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I think. Yeah. That's what I'm wondering. And we can set. The select board can say we are going to mobile on and take care of the snow plowing and sanding, period.

**Speaker 7:** And then my question would be would the end goal of whatever is potentially created be to delineate that regarding the entire building so that would it be a memory and desired portion of the total block who owns it. of understanding or an MOU or MOA however we want to refer to it between the select board and the school board or would it just simply be outlining when different parts of the building are being used or and and how they're to be used at those times or I guess how deep because if you're if it's a very vague outline although I understand that legal counsel is ideal if it's a very vague outline just to to determine some lines of communication I think that that would be one thing but if we're really breaking down to you're paying this percent of the electricity and you're responsible for the heating system and we're responsible for that I feel like that amount of detail we would have no

**Speaker 5:** choice but to see so what I read and understood is that it can be treated as a contract if it has three elements of a contract one of the then is specific terms one of them is agreement between parties so for example the select board put out something all on their own that nobody else signed that said we mow the lawn we that's not a contract right that's just there's no two parties to that but if there are two or more parties to it and there are what's called considerations where one party says I will do this thing and the other party says that thing so I think if for communication purposes each group wanted to like issue their own here's what we understand to be our responsibilities then that doesn't

**Speaker 18:** that's what I'd like to see and then have something at the bottom to be

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** modified if something comes up we can get together like this and say oh this is not working let's see if we could do something else or you to do something

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** else I think that the people at these on these boards should ask yourself a question why is this happening How old is this school? How long has the school and the town office has been living together in harmony? Way before May.

**Speaker 19:** Right, way before May.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Now there's these issues. We talk about the building, what part of the building? Well, I can, not to call her out, but Pam, you remember this statement. From the front of the road to the river, that's the school. Remember that, Pam?

**Speaker 20:** I remember it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, I remember that because you told me to remember it.

**Speaker 5:** Good memory.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** She's tough too, so. But what I'm asking is, and I just wanna ask this question, why are we writing things down? Why are we setting contracts? What is the concern? What is the nervousness? Why are we doing this? I don't know the answer. I have an opinion, but I don't know the answer. I do, I did read that, Jed, and I do care about that, and I do see, but it's still a gray area of when the school's open. The school's open when they say it's open.

**Speaker 4:** Pretty much.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Right? Yeah. So we're having a meeting and the school says, well, we're gonna have a dance that night. School's open, right? And the school says, you guys can't have a meeting that night because we need to park it. Can they tell us not to park here? Can they tell a library, close, because we're doing testing? Can they tell us, now you lost your lawn mowing guy, and we're gonna hire a guy and you're gonna pay for it? Or if our highway truck breaks down, do they tell us we have to pay for a new guy to come in and hire an outside contractor? I wanna know is, who dictates what's going on? Or do we leave it alone and live in harmony like we used to, like a bunch of . . . . . . . . . townspeople, instead of this outside source of a union, I don't need to tell you how I feel about unions, dictates to us what they're doing. We're representatives of these townspeople. Not the union. That's my concern. Well, ask yourself that question, why are we doing this? That's my . . . that's my question.

**Speaker 1:** That's a good question. Yeah. I don't know.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I don't see anybody answering.

**Speaker 8:** I don't have an answer to that.

**Speaker 1:** That's tough. It just seems like that's the environment that's messed with . . . . a lot of cars but there's nobody doing any other things. I don't know. I don't have an answer for that. It just seems like that's the environment that something needs to be drawn out.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You know, we hear, look what happened to Reesboro. Coming from the superintendent, saying that to the library, did you see what happened to Reesboro? I look at that as a veiled threat, at the least. Maybe you don't, maybe you don't. Like I said, the whole town. I don't even know the guy. I'm just saying, when I see this stuff going on, it bothers me for the town of Stamford. That's what I was elected for, to represent the people of the town of Stamford.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah, we don't need a rogue agent. Right. Dictating everything that's going to happen.

**Speaker 21:** And where does that, what is this, why is this happening?

**Speaker 1:** I'm not, I haven't been relieved about the town offices here. The school's going to say, no, you can only operate at certain hours. Simple as that.

**Speaker 10:** You need to be closed on businesses at night.

**Speaker 3:** That's what drives the actual need to have something that says, this belongs here, that belongs here. And now the chooshy kind of situation.

**Speaker 1:** I mean, I wish we could do the old buddy handshake and say, yeah, we all love each other for 50 years.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'm sorry. We could go all the way down to the multi-use room, though. So now what happens? We know that multi-use room is not a multi-use room during school hours. We know that. Right?

**Speaker 4:** Multi-purpose, yep.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Multi-purpose, okay. Use and purpose. I think if you look them up in the synonymous, that's it. But I'm just saying, I'm not as educated as the rest of the people in this room. But I do have ideas. And I'm saying is, when we talked about this, what was that, eight years ago? Eight years ago, somewhere around there? That's right. We talked about that room. That room was written down in the deed as a multi-purpose room. But it's really not, is it? Only when the school says we can use it. Right. Is that right? Or do we, or is that ours? Can we use it? I understand when there's kids there, there's this concern of safety. I understand that point. I don't believe there's any safety, but I understand it.

**Speaker 4:** And that's what you have to look at, Mike. When all of this blueprints and deeds were all made up, it was a different world. And we all know that. Sure. We all know that for sure. Our kids could walk to school. Sure. Our kids could walk home from school. They walked down to the church for catechism not that long ago. It's just a different world now.

**Speaker 22:** Yeah, well, I understand that.

**Speaker 4:** And there's just conditions that have to be locked off and it has to be closed. And in the meantime, I mean, to answer your previous question, there's also been laws within the agency of education that have changed that have given the superintendent different direction and different governance. And so some of that could be a spillover into what you see as a problem. And But we have to live with. And we all have to abide by law through the state.

**Speaker 5:** So this is going to come as no surprise. But I also read up a whole bunch of the state statutes. And I'm just curious, because I keep hearing that it's in state law that the school has control of the building during school hours. And I looked and I looked and I looked. And I was genuinely curious as to what you were referring to. OK. This says, property of the school district.

**Speaker 23:** Which is, which is.

**Speaker 5:** Because I've looked at this, which is us. Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** It's control, not property. Should I have control of something they don't own?

**Speaker 5:** Well, this says, shall have possession, care, control, and management of the property of the school district subject to the authority vested in the electorate or any school district official. Are we saying that the school district and the town are the exact same thing? Because they have separate school boards.

**Speaker 24:** And they're separate.

**Speaker 4:** Yeah. You have a town board and you have a school board. Right. So as the school district, the school board is the representation to that district.

**Speaker 3:** So basically, I've downloaded all the really bad definitions that don't make any sense until you actually sit down. A school district is the district is a public governing unit that in Vermont state statute exists as its own independent municipality in which it has the power of municipality, including the availability to levy taxes, yada, yada, yada.

**Speaker 7:** But we're not a school district, right? No, we are.

**Speaker 25:** We're a supervisor.

**Speaker 26:** Inside, it's like, you guys are leaders. You have the school district and then the supervisor.

**Speaker 7:** Because they're headed in a debate about that, too.

**Speaker 5:** Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, what is the property of the school district? Because my understanding was that this is the property of the town. The building.

**Speaker 1:** The road to the river.

**Speaker 5:** But where does that come from? Because it's on the deed. I'm just, I'm curious. I'm truly curious. Where did it come from originally?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** It was, I believe it was the last chair of the school board said that. Pam has looked like she might know. Pam, you know. Yeah, Pam. It may have been you. I'm not sure.

**Speaker 4:** I don't believe I've said that, but.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, I would have to go back in that eight years ago. It was prior to COVID when we were over there.

**Speaker 5:** This is going to come as a shock when I read all the meeting minutes, too, about this. Wow. People are not going to see it. They really are not going to see it. When I get curious, I start digging.

**Speaker 27:** Well, I don't know if we have the minutes now on the phone.

**Speaker 5:** No, you do. You have it all the way. So 2020 was the last time this really reared its head. And that's what I was reading about. And I didn't see anything about references to statute. I didn't see anything about, I saw the school board asserting that they had control over the building, but I never saw like the mechanism for that. Pam. I can't recognize Pam.

**Speaker 20:** So I just want to, I just want to state that I would be very concerned about putting anything down in writing between two parties. I would be wanting hard before you actually do that. And also, the reason that this has become this big thing is because it appears to me that our superintendent showed extreme disrespect to the town, to the library, and the way he handled this whole thing. Yeah.

And because none of this had to go down this way, but he chose to make it go down this way.

**Speaker 20:** And to be fair, I don't believe that he's a stupid man. I believe he knew what he was doing. That's just my opinion. So my question here is, are we in a situation where when the superintendent decides he wants something, he's just going to disrespect our and demand

that we capitulate? Is that where we are now? Yes.

**Speaker 20:** That's what I, that's the question I'd like to know.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Opinion or in fact? Opinion is, he made a statement to the school, or to the library, more or less saying, hey, you saw what happened to Reesboro. Don't push back against me. Is that kind of what he said?

**Speaker 7:** He did bring up Reesboro again the other night at the school board meeting.

**Speaker 28:** I don't want to hold that.

**Speaker 7:** But I did verbalize the fact that it does make me uncomfortable. And I said it in their meeting. It went during. It does make me uncomfortable because we do know what happened in Reesboro. And I do believe that it is a different scenario. And we talked about the fact that not only is the layout of their building different, but also the ownership of their building, where they had signed it over to the supervisory union or the school district. I'm not sure at this point which way it went. But the actual ownership of the building had changed hands because now it's going back in the other direction. But I did tell him. And I'm trying to communicate the best we can what our major concerns are. And the fact that Reesboro has been brought up at three separate times to us, twice in person and once in the electronic communications, makes me uncomfortable. It would be a huge detriment to the town if all of a sudden the library is not allowed to open before 5 PM. Our primary patrons, they definitely come before 5 PM. Right? So that's something we want to avoid at all costs. We also want to be collaborative. We want to continue to do what we've done, which is, as Cindy stated earlier, the best that we can with the finances that we have to maintain the space, to make it welcoming, to encourage community involvement. We want to do all of those things. I think we just want some reassurance that we're not going to come up against. And the other point. We have a piece that was a major concern, which we have voiced to both the school board and to the select board. So I'll just reiterate it concisely, which is, it is a big financial burden. We did opt to continue paying our librarians, even though the building was closed, because that represented 40% of their pay for those weeks. So you certainly can't, without any notice, say to your employee, we're not paying you. Right? Right. We can't do that. Right. So we certainly opted to continue.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** It's commendable that you did that, but on the other hand.

**Speaker 7:** But that would also be another issue if it were to become more frequent.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** The townspeople are the ones that lost out.

**Speaker 7:** They did. Luckily, our librarians were able to make use of their time and do things that didn't pertain to opening the doors of the library. So we want to make sure that, moving forward, we're just not put in a position where, we have to close during. And it is not an extensive number of hours. It's six hours a week that the overlap happens.

**Speaker 1:** So. Did they end up using the library for testing?

**Speaker 7:** We know one of the days that we were closed, it was not used. So they put a sign on the door and did not allow us to open, but it was not used. One of our librarians came a handful of times to check, and the space wasn't being utilized. So it's not something we did over and over again. I don't know. But we do know that on one of the days that we were closed, we were able to close. So we're not using the library for testing. So we're not using the library for testing. So we're not using the library for testing. We're not using the library for testing. So we're not using the library for testing. And on the days that we were instructed to close, which we closed, the library was not utilized.

**Speaker 1:** So explain to me, maybe Pam, elaborate. Why do you think we don't need a written agreement between two parties in the city?

**Speaker 20:** I just think that when you sign, when you enter into an agreement between two parties, it becomes a contract, and I do not think the town should be getting into a contract without .

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** There may be a time where we can't afford on our town budget to continue to mow the ground.

**Speaker 21:** a lot we might or plowed right or I don't see who might need some

**Speaker 1:** flexibility but in the environment we're in now where this I don't I don't see him all of a sudden being mr. nice guy I just don't see that well I don't know

**Speaker 7:** but our school board certainly doesn't answer to him like I mean I know in

**Speaker 29:** certain cases can't see bill being mr. nice guy is that what you're saying not

**Speaker 1:** the way he's been approaching the last three topics that were discussing

**Speaker 16:** tonight I'm just I'm going back to what I said I'm hoping we can just work it

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** out among the three boards say we're going to do this you're going to do that and if we need to use the building I mean that we already have permission to use the multi-purpose room Thursday nights if we have an overflow in the select board office and for other events too you've asked permission we've asked permission to use the building so

**Speaker 30:** if you want to use a community room you apply to the school board and they

**Speaker 31:** approve it we apply to the principal's office I think that's to me that's so

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** much like treating the board like a children if no one's using it I believe that it should be a scheduling a communication an agreement

you

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** know it doesn't show up but permission bothers me we we are not allowed in there without asking even if it's not open and I just don't I mean I hear I know it's a different world but I hear stories occur having a key with him as a kid going over playing basketball to this day I know people use that that are out of town people have keys and they go in there or they don't have it it's got a key now. But this went back, way back 8 years, 10 years ago, and they had, there was keys all over the place. And a slide board asked for a key to utilize it without asking permission if we had an overflow. Just a chair. We were told no. We were told no. Because we're not capable of making sure everything is done. Yeah, the back door was open a couple times now that we had to call and get it shut. The other thing I don't like, and this is nothing against you again, but I noticed as I've been on the board, since I've come to town actually, when you were chairman before, you ran your meetings, and the principal was invited against your meetings, and the principal was allowed to have time to talk. Now Bill

**Speaker 32:** runs your meetings. I don't understand that. No, he doesn't. Thank you, Beth. No, Cindy

**Speaker 13:** runs the meetings.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay, so Bill does all the communications, all the emails, all the agendas, everything that comes to us, it's Bill. I work on the agenda with Bill. And he sends it out. Why

**Speaker 22:** don't you send it out? Because it comes through central office. So that's where I'm having

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** a problem is, you are Stamford's school board, yet the supervisor's central office seems to be dictating everything that we do in that school board. He's not dictating.

**Speaker 13:** No, I'm not dictating the whole thing. If I have issues I want to bring up, I call Cindy and ask her to put things on the agenda. Okay. If, I think, I look at the supervisor. I thought about that. And what I look at them doing is they're like an administrative function for us. The last- They post it on the central office website, all of the agendas and minutes, they're all essential.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** The town meeting itself, the school board session of it, Bill ran that. No. bill he started he ran it he answered questions he rolled his eyes when he asked questions which i was one of the only people to ask a question on a two or two point something million dollar budget but bill seems to be taking over the school board i will go to the next meeting and i will watch i

**Speaker 19:** will i will observe and see how much he talks versus how much he talks and please do oh i will

**Speaker 4:** look in fact yeah i'm not proud but i shushed him twice this week i was gonna say maybe ask cindy about a cleaning machine yeah yeah no he hasn't put them down a couple of times oh yeah and i gave him a talk to the hand so um that makes me happy good it happens you know i mean but in referencing town meeting we as a board superintendent and principal went over our strategy strategies of how we were going to approach it remember I'm sure you all do that because it was a reminder in an email somewhere down the line that our school budget didn't pass the year before so we wanted to have as much information as possible and so we had Julie speak to the test scores and the improvements that were happening with the students and in the classrooms with with the staff and then we had Bill speak to some of this some of the numbers because a lot of it had to do with the cleanup up central office and special education dollars after the last superintendent there was a lot of there was it wasn't a mismanagement but it was a failed system overall and so invoices would come in if they weren't being, it was not corrupt, it was failed, they were not being entered into the computer properly, into the program properly, and so it looked like you had more money, and you didn't. So because the invoices weren't being charged against, the debits weren't going to be made up.

**Speaker 1:** Nobody ended up with that money?

**Speaker 4:** Nobody ended up with that money.

**Speaker 33:** No, grants weren't being involved before

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** that you should have had. Yeah, I think it seemed, yes, I think he was very good for that. He looked very strong in that area there.

**Speaker 4:** And he's done a marvelous job, because he also brought in a whole new, the whole new crew of people, unfortunately added a position or two, but also brought in the accounting system that is compatible with the rest of the state, so that going forward, everything's gonna be able to communicate back and forth properly with grants and what have you. So there was a lot to it for him to come in. I think with the term.

**Speaker 33:** There was a lot of turnover.

**Speaker 4:** There was a lot of turnover before he took over. And again, with every single superintendent being present and in person, there was a lot extra they had to take on their own shoulders and try to keep the office going.

**Speaker 34:** I wonder, too, how much it is the, because it's like,

**Speaker 3:** each superintendent does their job the way they want to do it. So if you have one that just basically shows up once or twice and says, I'm here if you need me, whatever, or somebody who actually is hands-on doing their job.

**Speaker 34:** You're not wrong.

**Speaker 3:** And so I think that it's just understanding.

**Speaker 4:** We had an interim, I wasn't on the board again yet, but we had an interim that he was a retired superintendent. He was a wonderful man and that's what he wanted to be. He just wanted to be a wonderful man and he wanted to be everybody's friend and he wasn't doing anything to clean up and help and sort through. And so the staff was still feeling like they didn't have the balance that they needed and so he had to move along.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Right, but there should be checks and balances. Absolutely, and now there are. I believe that the school boards should be part of that check and balance.

**Speaker 30:** Absolutely.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** And when we have a superintendent and a failed system, or whatever we call it, I also, maybe I'm wrong, but I thought there was something about missing funds. To me, that's not just a failed system.

**Speaker 4:** They were not missing.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Nobody knew where they were. Not how they came to be.

**Speaker 4:** Well. You know, when you think you have more money because you haven't entered the invoice.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Right.

**Speaker 4:** So you spend twice.

**Speaker 19:** Right. You spend twice as much.

**Speaker 4:** I understand. Yeah. Now the money's gone because it's spent and the vendors have to get paid. Right.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So everybody got fired or many people got fired. A lot of people just quit. No, people quit. I understand that. Yes.

**Speaker 5:** So thinking about the use of space and how we can communicate better about it, I think one of the things I'm sitting here chewing over is I'm not sure that better communication would have entirely prevented the situation that we had with the library use because there was a genuine conflict of the school and or the superintendent believing that they could use the space when we believed they could not use the space. And so I totally believe that improving communication is critical and will help a lot. But I'm just putting out there that I think there still will be times when there's disagreement over space. And so we need to have a way of resolving those times when there's disagreement over the use of space.

**Speaker 7:** Can I just ask the school board members present, do you, your opinions on, do you feel like the library should have to close during the school hour, the six hours of overlap?

**Speaker 4:** I don't think that's a good question. I think it's a fair question to ask us. Only because we do oversee the education of the students, but we don't know the particulars to that, to the education process of each and every student. And each and every student is different. And that's what was so specific to these testing needs was to accommodate for any learning curve that was involved with each student. So we can't fairly assess that. Right.

**Speaker 29:** But they did have the three full weeks.

**Speaker 7:** I checked the testing window in Vermont because I'm very familiar with it in Massachusetts. And Vermont is similar in which they give you three full weeks to complete the testing that needs to be done. And the testing does not, I mean, I think, you know, most of the time it would be very unfair to test a student for five hours out of a school day, right? Like that would not be an appropriate use of time. For any... Exactly. Whatever level you're at. Exactly. The AP exams are the closest we get in education to testing for that long. And even that's only three and a half hours. Although don't tell my kids I said only. So, but I guess my point is with the... And I know we don't need to dig back into this. My question was really moving forward. But if you have three full weeks and you know that in any one week you're definitely not going to be testing a particular student for that length of time, I feel like logistically, it seems as though it wasn't a necessity. But whether it was or wasn't, in general, do you as members of the town and of the school board feel like if the superintendent says to us, you need to close tomorrow, that we, like, is that something that you would support him in doing?

**Speaker 4:** I think there always has to be a legitimate explanation. Time... I don't know the time frame and why it was such a close ask. But I think... I don't think the superintendent will be doing any asking in future... This one, anyway, particularly in the future. But I think we need to... We need to be there for one another. And we need to appreciate our... our each role in this town, and that we're all here for the townspeople. And I think if we continue to have a good working relationship, which I think this is... I think this is going to be behind us, and I don't think that it's going to be a problem, but I do feel... I said this to Nancy after the library and the school board... Brian and I met with you guys. Nancy and I aren't going to always be here. Mike and you aren't always going to be... Not everyone's always going to know what the school does, what the town does, what the library does. And I think that if we each... And if you want to do it separately on your own, define what our roles are and how we... how we take care of the building together and maintain this for the town, I think going forward we'll be in better shape.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** That's how I see it. I don't think we need anything legal. We have our... our duties, what we're going to do, what you're going to do, what you're going to do. And then if something comes up, we just meet and say, ah, this isn't quite working here. Let's see if we can figure something else out.

**Speaker 16:** But isn't that what we're doing now?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** I mean, isn't that what we were doing a month ago, too?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Well, then... Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** I mean, I'm all open for it. If it's actually going to happen, well, we'll see, I guess. Yeah.

**Speaker 35:** It seems like we're making progress. So I agree with a lot of what you said, Cindy, definitely, and Amy, and a lot of what Mike has said, that there needs to be a mechanism for addressing any disputes or anything that comes up that could... evolve into something unpleasant. But I just feel that if there is an intractable document that's been signed, that it has a tendency to establish an environment that limits the ability to be collaborative and to trust our fellow residents and to establish a sense of community and all of that great stuff that we really want to have in place. And, you know, if we dotted all the I's and crossed all the T's and then signed all the documents, then it just creates a situation where it's like, see? I told you. Or whatever could come up. That if we have a way to... After some meeting, can't we all just get along? You know, and that's really what we want to happen. We've all been in that situation in the past and we know it feels good to be able to have these kinds of discussions and have an opportunity for opinions but not to have it, you know, get out of hand.

**Speaker 36:** I would agree with all that,

**Speaker 1:** but you've got to throw the supervisory union into the mix too. They're part of this conversation as well and they pull a lot of weight and leverage as far as what they want to do with the building. So that's, in my opinion, the wild card of what, you know, it's great that we all want to sit here and go kumbaya and we all get along and we've known each other forever. That's great, but they're not at the table right now. But they're a major player in the game. So I just don't trust what it is that they may want to do in the future. That's all I'm saying.

**Speaker 4:** But in all honesty, wasn't I asked and or did I just assume? Oh, no. You were asked. I was asked. You were. You were not imagining it. Okay. It worked. It worked. I'm going to have this discussion with Bill. I'll gladly arrange to get Bill in the mix too.

**Speaker 1:** That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, what she's saying is that we can all get along. We can all make agreements just on back door handshakes and all that, right? Kumbaya in the room. We've all known each other forever. But they're part of the, they're also part of the mix, right? And they hold a lot of weight as far as dictating what happens with this building. So that's the part of the, But it's not always going to be Bill either.

**Speaker 37:** That's the part of the agreement I'm working on.

**Speaker 4:** So the next one that comes in, the next one that comes in, I think that's why we've got to each individually. Pam.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay. So,

**Speaker 4:** I almost hate to ask this question,

**Speaker 20:** but I'm sorry, I must. Because of when you asked a question about whether you could expect to have to close the library again, and the answer that was given was not,

no, it was, I don't know.

**Speaker 20:** Um, and so, so I have to ask this question just because of history. If the superintendent came in here tomorrow and said, hey, we've got like all these kids, they need special accommodations, you know, we just can't work it. You know, we, we need to have the town office. The town office just is going to need to shut down today because we, we need that. We need the town office. Would that be allowed? I want to know the difference between the library and the town office. Are they, are they the same or are they different? Does he have control over the building? A hundred percent control over the building. Yes or no?

**Speaker 1:** I would say yes. It's one continuous building. It's not separate from any.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I believe you could ask that.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'd say, I would come down and say, no, you're not using that. And I would tell him no.

**Speaker 4:** I've been on the school board on and off. For up for 27 years. But the only time I recall the school ever ask for use of this room was when we had a senator come down. And that was during the act 46 merger studies and all. And, uh, it was Senator Baruth on the education committee. And we, it was during school hours, so we couldn't actually entertain him. And we didn't know what time exactly, but he was supposed to get here for somewhere between. 12 and one, well, that's lunch out there. So we asked for this room. We were given permission to use this room. Yes. The only. Yeah. Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Right.

**Speaker 4:** Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** It's been used other times too. They did a hearing here. I said, the office is closed. I'll be at that end. The door is closed. It's not open to the public.

**Speaker 31:** And you're welcome to use it, but not if it's asked, will it be permission?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** She's saying if it's demanded. By the superintendent, does the school board support him? Is that.

**Speaker 20:** I just want to know whether, whether the school board knows to control, um, this facility via the building or the road to the river. I just want to know what the answer is to that.

**Speaker 1:** Just the road to the river and worse.

**Speaker 5:** Well, I mean, they keep, they keep saying that. But I haven't seen anything that satisfies me that that's actually, I mean, Well, and I've done a lot of change management in my professional life. And one of the ways you get change to happen is you just keep saying the same thing over and over and over until people start repeating it. And people are like, well, yeah, of course the school has control of the building. And maybe it does, but I haven't seen anything that actually proves that. And I, and I.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** When it does say it in the law.

**Speaker 5:** Well, this is the only thing here. It's that they have control of the property of the school district. But is this the property of the school district? This is the property of the town. We don't know.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Depends on who you're asking.

**Speaker 5:** Exactly. So that's what I'm saying. That it's like, as far as I can tell, it's still up for debate. And I think it's going to continue being up for debate. But I did want to point out, I want to on the public record that one of the ways that libraries are special in the state of Vermont is that there is. This is a statute that specifically refers to municipal libraries and the fact that the board of these municipal libraries have exclusive control over the hours of the municipal library. And so that is written out as protection for municipal libraries specifically because of their role.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** What would you define this as a shared library or municipal library?

**Speaker 7:** Well, I think community is what you're looking for. My community.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah. Okay.

**Speaker 38:** Well, so here's the fun thing.

**Speaker 5:** So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I went and. Looked through. All the. Town warrants that we have back in the vault. And the library existed in the earliest one we could find, which was 1940 as a public library. And it has been as a public library or as a community library for the entire time with its own budget through the town for that entire time. And as far as the state is concerned, like the state library board, I forget what it's called. They view us as a municipal library with all of the. You know. responsibilities and statutes and all that that correspond but it's the space

**Speaker 39:** that Laurie which matter I think I think he could what's the difference between

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** this office and their library there is no difference it's a continuous building

**Speaker 21:** there's no separation I don't think the school board could make that decision no

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I don't think that it's it I agree it's an interpretation I interpret it different than I say that this is a town office and it is in the three different deeds that this building is owned by the citizens of Stamford and the school has no authority at all over this building of this property in where we're sitting now and if they want to ask that's fine I know there's that after hours it's that push and shove of that room over here we never asked to use the classrooms we just asked to use the municipal community whatever you want to call it years ago that always happened why is it an issue now and I don't believe I think you know I know it's a different world but I don't believe it has anything to do with safety at all I think that's what they're using as a disguise you know all its safety is safety there's no safety stop that it's ridiculous there's no safety at all at any school these are glass windows these are easy doors there's school buses kids still walk to school in this school they still ride their bikes and they still use these playgrounds after hours so they this this community is still a safe community where everybody watched out for everybody so I believe that the interpretation is these town offices are the official entering local officials should remain town offices and if you want to get deep into it the state has all kinds of special laws firearm laws firearm laws can't have a firearm for school property yeah we have hunters checking in deer you know nobody has a problem with that you know why because there is no problem it's Stamford it's Vermont there is no problem but we couldn't make it a problem all these things and again I'm going to go right back to it. Why are we doing this? Why are we asking these questions? And why are we making these problems? Why do we have to ask permission to use what we pay for? I don't ask permission for my wife to use the bathroom. I pay for it. Why do we have to ask permission? I understand we can't just walk in when they're teaching, but afterwards, why are we doing this? We don't have any more children in this school than we did when Kurt went to school. As a matter of fact, probably less. Yeah, we need more space now. Why? I was told all our historical stuff is stuffed in a closet somewhere in the school. That's pretty nice to know, isn't it? I mean, what are we doing, guys? I'm not from Stamford. I moved here. I'm from Clarksburg. But I don't know. I've known Kurt all my life. I've known Laurie all my life. I probably know Pam pretty close to all my life. I know Nancy all my life. You know, I'm right down the road. I see her experience.

**Speaker 7:** I'm a lot younger than you. I haven't known you much.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You are. Yeah, you're a cat, you know.

**Speaker 40:** All right.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Why are we doing this? Yeah, I hear you.

**Speaker 1:** I don't know. I guess I don't understand. I guess we wouldn't be doing any of this if the approach was just different. Right. Exactly. If the approach was appropriate and accurate and professional. Yeah. We wouldn't be here at all talking about any of this right now.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** So we're just going to continue on doing what we're doing. We'll plow. We'll mow. You'll clean the office. I don't know what the library does.

**Speaker 30:** So what if a request comes in from Julie even to Danielle and says, oh, we need to use the library. Okay, you can use the library or... No, you can't. When?

**Speaker 5:** What do we...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'll be right back here again. The board should tell their employees, that's what they are, your employees, that they shouldn't even be contacting the librarian. They should be contacting the trustees and asking permission. It shouldn't be, well, let's go pick on Danielle. What's she going to say? No? And then all of a sudden they come in there and say, get out. She's not going to stand up to those people. It needs to go through boards. And the boards make decisions. And it shouldn't be three days before the event. They knew all about this.

**Speaker 4:** And that's probably why Bill did it. Exactly. Because it was three days before the event and that's probably why Bill did it himself. Because it was short notice. I don't know.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** These issues are why it's happening.

**Speaker 1:** I mean, it doesn't sit well with me that he's brought in Reesboro three times now. I mean, that's a passive-aggressive move just telling you, hey, I still call the shots. I can do whatever I want to do at any time I want to do it. That's my worry.

**Speaker 4:** He goes to Reesboro and he's the one that shut the door in Reesboro. No, no. That's going to be done.

**Speaker 13:** And their board directed that.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah, but he keeps mentioning it. He don't mention it for nothing. He's not just saying it in passing. He's saying it because, yeah, whatever. Yeah, exactly. That's the part that's not flying with me. That's where I said if he's not going to be Mr. Nice Guy, right? Because he doesn't seem to be approaching anybody in the Mr. Nice Guy kind of way. Why?

**Speaker 4:** Because we don't like to talk about people when they're not here to defend themselves.

**Speaker 37:** Well, I'm just saying on the record, he could listen to the recording if he wants.

**Speaker 1:** Absolutely. So he's acting like a dictator, which doesn't fly with me.

**Speaker 4:** But I'm just telling you this is entering into a very uncomfortable situation for me. Because I don't think that that's fair in any way, shape, or form to talk about someone like that. Whether you want to use dictator or other words, I just don't think it's right. This is my opinion.

**Speaker 1:** Kirk, am I already talking here? It's strictly my opinion. And based on all the minutes and all the approach that we've had so far, he's non-approachable. He's not professional.

**Speaker 30:** Going forward, regarding the space of the library, is the school board going to tell Julie to reach out directly to the trustees and give us ample time if there's something? Or just, I mean, is there going to be any resolving of if this comes up again? Because it probably will.

**Speaker 4:** Yes, because we'll take everything from here. And as we did the last, when we met with the trustees and I wrote up a synopsis. Okay. And we discussed it and we'll do the same thing again.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay. So, Nancy, this meeting was called by the select board. Yes. Right? Was Bill or the superintendent and or the principal invited to this meeting? No.

**Speaker 41:** We discussed at the meeting.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay. I don't think you were here. No, I wasn't. That's why I'm asking. Yeah. We said just the three boards. Okay. Yeah. But they were welcome to come as visitors.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, I believe that in the future when we have these meetings, and we've had just school board.

**Speaker 4:** All board meetings.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah. All board meetings. I like them. I like them out there more than here. When we do have these with the school board, I'd like to at least make a request with our board that we invite these people that are, and I agree with Kurt, they're key elements of these discussions. If they have that much authority, then they should be invited to these meetings. So, they can answer Kurt when he asks questions, and we won't be talking behind their backs. And that way there, we can get it out instead of, say, pushing it down the road and saying, well, we're not sure how he feels. The questions have been asked, even though we all have opinions, and that's all they are is opinions right now. Every single one of them were opinions. The questions have not been answered. I'm not asking you to answer them because I don't think that you want to or you can. I really believe that it's a tough question. If Bill says, Larry, get out, what does the school board think about that? You should go back to your board and ask that question and run that by the board and say, that is a pretty good question. Does the superintendent of the supervisor union, whatever the heck it's called, have the authority to dictate anything they want during or after school hours? In this whole building and this whole property, is the answer yes, no, or somewhere in between? That's what we need to know.

**Speaker 4:** So you're talking about after school hours? I'm asking.

**Speaker 22:** During school hours?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You mentioned after school hours. I said both.

**Speaker 22:** Okay.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I would like to know, is during school hours, the door is open, does he have an authority to shut her down in time of need? At any point. During school hours, does he have the authority to say, no, you can't use this property? Whether it's part of the building or we just want to have it. Okay. You can't have it. Remember when you had all the seat savers thing down there? Yeah. What if they just said no? Can't have it. Can they do it? Community garden owners. After hours. Community garden owners. I just want to know the answer. I'm not giving an answer because I don't know either. Yeah. But I think the board, I think the school board should think about this. Bang it back and forth. Find out what the laws are. Find out what you can and can't do. And once you do have an answer, go back to the people that asked the question and then communicate it to your employer. Communicate it to your employees that you set their rates, part of it at least, superintendent and the principal, and tell them, this is your rule. This is what you can and what you can't do. Instead, right now, I think you're right. There is no answer. You ask the question, is it going to happen again? We don't know because we can't read Bill's mind. But if the school board said, no, it will not happen again. And there's some way, a whole, you know, that sets, then that'd be good. You would like that. And I'm not saying be the other way around where you guys demand everything either. But a simple communication makes it go a long ways. And you're right. This whole scenario was bad. We all agree on that. I mean, I've had trustees call me and I've had people call me and say, hey, what the heck do we do? I agree. This is, we're, Cindy made a statement, we're all in it for the town. Remember that. Remember when you were elected? Remember when you swore an oath for the town? Do it.

**Speaker 7:** I guess just for the record, even if the communication had taken and they were as polite and nice and I'm not saying, you know, whatever, we've all read the communication. And I would still balk at asking us to close for six months. Six days. I still would. So the bottom line actually is, isn't how, how nice or not nice the communication was. Not that. I mean, certainly that goes a long way. Do you think if it was done two months in advance?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** No, I still don't want to close our doors to the public. Let me finish. What if they asked to change the days in the library and could communicate it to the

**Speaker 7:** people? Right.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Like there's a lot of ways communication could have helped. But if in the end, if the end result was, you're closing for six months. Well, that's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point.

**Speaker 7:** That's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point. If the end result was, you're closing for six days, I still, there's nothing that would

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** soften that point. But instead of Tuesday, okay, Wednesday.

**Speaker 7:** But if the communications certainly, I think, could have been different and maybe, you know, that like moving forward, if there are things that are absolutely unavoidable, we never know what might come up. Then if we're able to switch something around or, but just closing is, is a tough pill to swallow. Right. I mean, it is one of our number one goals is to continuity. If you want to come get a book, if you want to come see a person, if you need to get out of your house and have a friendly community member to guide you, we want you to know that if it's Tuesday or Thursday, you're going to see us here. Yeah. You know, all of us cover that desk in an, in an effort to make that happen. We're all, you know, I've been in there a lot of Saturdays, so we all, that is a real non-negotiable for us. Yeah. But as a board, we want to maintain consistency and we volunteer there in order to make that happen.

**Speaker 3:** And also the, um, makes your, your job harder to follow the law as it is written if you have to close. Because the whole, like as I was reading everything, your main goal is to keep a community going, have hours for the older people, the younger people, and the people in between. So if the only time that somebody could get there is at noon and then that's what they expect, then there is that point where that is kind of breaking the law as it is written, as I, as I see it, which makes your lives a lot, you know, kind of a hectic, kind of try to do this and make it sure it's all right. So, you know, it's like, I think it is.

**Speaker 14:** What law?

**Speaker 3:** What law? The law for the, the laws for the library. Yeah. Municipal library. It says that it has to be open for people, for the old people, for the young people, and that is their main job is to make sure that the library is open. And a certain amount of hours a week. Exactly. I recall 14 hours or something. Yeah.

And the times, the certain times.

**Speaker 30:** Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. So, so how do we get there as described, right? So right now it seems like we're leaving it status quo and we're just going to hope for the best next time that it all works out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it sounds like, it sounds like there's conflicts with laws. So, you have conflicts saying that the school board or the school has authority over the

**Speaker 13:** building and everything. And then you've got a library law that says they have to be open for a certain times. And you had state testing laws that say they had to be testing, I don't know the ins and outs and I might go backwards, but. So, there, all these laws are conflicting. I think lawyers, but none of us set the table are lawyers as far as I know. Right. But that's where the definition is, is that if there's a law that says that you can't do that, then you have to be open. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** of the property needs to be defined and it never has since day one of these discussions that that the definition of who is in charge just is the school the sole dictator where authority i guess you call of all the property the safe are they in charge of it school dictate that that safe will be open to them is it does that make sense no it doesn't so then we have to define it say no this is the town hall and the town hall has authority here that is the library and during the hour set they have authority there knows our set by state law that's where we have to define it and then after hours it becomes the town of stafford's property that's what we need to define i'm not saying that's the answer the correct answer i'm saying it's it's an idea i would throw it back at them i hate to do this but this is an issue that the school board needs to design more than the slot board does and throw it back to the school board and ask these questions that i've been telling you go back to the your board and define what the definition of it is what the authority of these people that are under your authority you guys just told me that the superintendent is hired by you he's under your authority makes rules for him set rules for him tell him you can't just go to the librarian and tell her she has to close that's ridiculous that's like telling laurie she has to close it's not right so i have a key to this place i have a key to a code and a key to him if i want to come in here at night and just sit here do nothing just read some paperwork i can do it are you telling me that the superintendent can tell me no my you can't come in here then what the hell did you give me the key for why right this this is what i'm saying this all these two offices are not the schools we have to define that that's and i'm not that's not fact it's in my opinion i can't prove that right now but i can't go to the deeds and argue it in a court of law and then let the

**Speaker 3:** jury decide but i think as soon as we do make these things it will solve a lot of problems because we're all sitting here is you know what if what if what if and if there's never an answer to any of these what ifs let me just keep kicking it down the road bill goes away the next guy comes and his whole or her whole idea is totally different i think so that if we need to have

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** some concrete answers yep how many principles have we had uh since uh mr easier has passed a lot maybe more yeah quite a bit right so there's like people just keep going through you know what's what like you say you got this guy's personality that person's personality there's one of the things that can do this and that you're right you need to have at least defined definitions i don't like the idea of writing things down where you say well we're going to vote a lot and you're going to pay half of them because that can change any time that is you know it grows as it goes we we sat down with bill oh boy over a year ago we talked about before you were back on the board we sat down and we said what can we do to budget wise where this town can take over some of the budget because my understanding and i have never looked this up someone just told me that your dollar for dollar the tax money going through this to through the pound side is better

**Speaker 19:** than the dollar for dollar cheaper yeah somebody had to tell you that yeah wow yeah okay because

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** i i mean i gotta learn somewhere right yeah so they say it's cheaper okay when you go to the school board and you ask questions and the guy rules his eyes at you like you're bothering them it's hard to learn so that's where i ask questions so i can learn okay but they tell us so bill said yeah i'll sit down and i'll look at all these things a couple months later he came back said i couldn't find anything anything at all what happened one minute it was a great idea and now i can't find anything concerns me we needed we need to go back

**Speaker 4:** to your board that's a whole other discussion sure it is but there's a lot of times when this like like the heating oil that's a legitimate thing for the school to not share but to put into our budget you have to the bus contract that's legitimate for us to have and not share because there's grant money involved that comes back i understand so there's there's different ways money has to be expended in order for it to go into our average queria membership

**Speaker 22:** our adm count for how many butts are in the seats i understand that i i fully understand that word of

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** What I don't understand is why paying for the guy mowing the lawn on our side is cheaper than the guy mowing the lawn on your side. I don't understand that, why our tax dollar gets changed. I do have an idea, but I've never been shown mathematically how it goes. And every year, the school board changes their mathematical equation. The board doesn't do it. That's the statement. Okay, I'm sorry, I said the school board. Is the mathematical equation changed every year? Yes. Someone needs to tell me, Cindy, because every year it gets changed, I need to learn.

**Speaker 4:** Michael, half the time it's not even changed and taken into as a law. Our budgets are going to print. I understand. A lot of it's conjecture as to how much it's going to cost the taxpayer.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I get that, and we sit there and vote a two point something million dollar budget in, and no one even understands what's going on. And you're right, this is a different discussion, and maybe you can sit down with me as a kindergartner and teach me how I can go through this.

**Speaker 19:** Because it changes all of our life issues.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I can't read.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Well, we're not going to solve that problem tonight, Michael.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** What, my reading ability?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** No, your math and reading. Well, your math and reading.

**Speaker 42:** Yeah.

**Speaker 7:** Maybe.

**Speaker 43:** I think that if I asked the same question, there wouldn't be a problem. Because I'm a nice guy, and I know how to write an email. And I would be very polite.

**Speaker 44:** Are you saying the other guy was not a nice guy?

**Speaker 43:** Oh, I'm not saying he's not a nice guy. I'm saying I know how to write an email, and I know how to be, you know.

**Speaker 3:** Tactful. Tactful. But I think for us, too, as a town kind of situation, having somebody from the town talk to the town. It feels better. It feels like we're just all working together. Yeah. It sure does. And so then it kind of like, I think it's like that record scratch kind of situation. It just kind of stops everything.

**Speaker 4:** But I'm going to go back to this. Julie or Bill, they're authorized to make these fast. I understand that.

**Speaker 3:** But I think I just, I'm not, I'm just talking with what Brian said. And they are able to do these things. But sometimes just because we're able to do something doesn't mean it should be done that way. Just like a law sometimes doesn't make sense.

**Speaker 1:** The whole reason we're here tonight is the approach. It's not the, I mean, it was just the approach and the fact that he was dictating things to the library.

**Speaker 45:** Well, I mean, it was the approach and also that, you know,

**Speaker 5:** that the school was asking for something that we felt was not in the service of the community of library users. And there is a tension there. And like, what are we going to do when there's a tension there?

**Speaker 13:** And I think there's a legitimate need for the students for the space. And maybe it should have been managed differently. But if there was a legitimate need for the students for the space.

**Speaker 40:** Was there?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Do you know if there was?

**Speaker 22:** I don't, I'm not saying I don't.

**Speaker 4:** Yes, there was. Because I know what Julie had to do to get other accommodations.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** They needed a space at those hours. They had 80 other, 81 other hours.

**Speaker 4:** Mike, I don't want to argue it with you because I didn't oversee it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's my point. There's all gymnasium there.

**Speaker 4:** I just know rules and regulations.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's my point.

**Speaker 4:** I think one of the challenges.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** No, you, the board didn't oversee it. And that's my point. You don't know if they really needed that.

**Speaker 4:** I do know that they needed it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** They're in those hours. There was 80 something other hours they could have done it. My understanding is nobody tested.

**Speaker 23:** Nobody tested in the afternoon.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Very rare. But yeah, they took those hours.

**Speaker 5:** So regardless, I think that some of what I struggle with is that the best way of dealing with that particular situation would have been a negotiation between the parties that were involved. And it was not presented as a negotiation. And it was presented to us as three months in advance, like, hey, we're looking at our testing times. We need accommodations in the library. You know, let's sit down and talk and figure out what hours would work for us. And what hours would work for you. You know, we could have worked something out. But that the key there is that it would need it to be a negotiation and not a demand. Because we, like, we represent a genuine need in the community. And the taxpayers who elected us. And, you know, there are multiple different needs in the community. And we need to be able to hash that out.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Has there been any other conflict from the library and the school other than this one incident? Let me just make an example. Say a lock that you didn't have a key.

**Speaker 7:** The use of the bathroom. Oh, yeah, the bathroom.

**Speaker 30:** Oh, that really happened.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Oh, okay.

**Speaker 46:** I'm just wondering if there was any other.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** And I guess, so.

**Speaker 35:** Want to get home in time for cold air tonight. I think we're just hashing all this out.

**Speaker 47:** You know, the other piece, though, is just the closing.

**Speaker 7:** We felt strongly as a group when we had our initial conversation. We called a special meeting. We warned it and had the discussion. And so if, say, we had just been like, okay, I guess you guys need it. We're going to close. And didn't push back at all. Then is that an opening toward future? You know, at least here, we've taken a stance and said, we represent the town residents and we've been tasked with this. We have these. We've had these set hours for years. It's only six hours of overlap. We feel like we can work together and be collaborative. So we also felt strongly that if we just said, okay, we're closed for those six days. Like, what does that? What message does that send? Like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You just capitulated. Then you take a step farther, right?

**Speaker 1:** The next move is farther and farther down the line, and you keep pushing the envelope till you get what you want. I don't think it's that nefarious. No, it's not.

**Speaker 3:** But it leads to that because nobody knows. It's the not knowing.

**Speaker 43:** I'm not saying— I'm not just saying.

**Speaker 4:** You should clarify this. Is there anything new that we can approach here? Is there anything else that we can discuss? Are we good? You told me there was other things.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I think we need to change that. I think we need to change that.

**Speaker 4:** discussions for another I just know I'm just saying we're going backwards here I

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** think was there anything with a janitor I know we talked about that before how so well we used to have a janitor here that did a lot more than janitor now you

**Speaker 33:** have some that comes in and just cleans and where's that going I mean so right

**Speaker 4:** now it's it's cleaning service and they said so the end of the and to the end of the school year after July 1 it's very likely that will be working here okay

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** and also the I think it was the snow blowing around the school was that

**Speaker 33:** gonna be in his duties because I would hope so but I'll make sure that there's

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** some kind of did we talk to the school about this because Dave was no Julie was here with Dave we didn't have a meeting that night either because we didn't have a meeting that night either because we didn't have a meeting that night either because we didn't have a quorum but Julie was here and said and Dave said I know you don't have a janitor anymore I like to clean the schoolyard first thing but then the janitor that was here would snow blow everything back out in what Dave plowed and Dave said so Dave was coming back down and cleaning up afterwards when you lost the janitor for a few weeks but he said I'm not doing around the school building maybe define what the janitor was going to do and come in early because if dave is following here early then he's doing the bus route and he can't come back down here to clean what the janitor snow

**Speaker 41:** blew back out in the driveway or the parking lot i have one question and i won't say anymore all right

**Speaker 30:** well i don't actually about the snow removal but i just have two things see we're all here together back in the winter when it was going to be like a cold snap and a lot of the places downtown were opening warming centers bob briggs approached the library to utilize the space which we approved for it was a saturday morning the hours that were open we were very preliminary talks about him and the emergency management team using the space if something like that comes up again should he approach the school board regarding that i think that's that was one of his things he was going to go to the school board or do we have authority to tell him they could use the library during non-school hours like on a sunday or would that have to go through the school board i would like you to check that so that's one thing and also another thing there's so many people that work here and sometimes if you come to the library you can't get a parking space yeah is there any way we can get like where the handicap thing is which probably isn't used that often like two signs that say on a thursday no parking here between the hours of 12 and 3 so like the teachers or the aides or whoever these are for library patrons for library patrons only i mean i didn't know if that's something that has to go through official means but just because sometimes it's very hard people love to park and you know walk

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** quite far i know out front is always open to the public out front leo parked there janet parked here and any public they had room to park out front but now it's pretty hard especially when the buses are coming for pick up and drop off that's we've had uh teachers ask people in here move your car because the bus is coming maybe more now i don't and i was one that was asked and didn't get out in time

**Speaker 39:** yes school time yeah sometimes it's hard to see you know would that be something looking at the future

**Speaker 48:** a larger parking area i don't know where they could park and to the snow removal thing on

**Speaker 30:** saturdays like when the library is open sometimes it's not like cleaned out in front of there so right because it's saturday right so whose responsibility is that so that's more

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** but that's all i have yeah if dave's not following he wouldn't be out and wouldn't be down here looking at that right but if it's just a couple inches i think dave does still

**Speaker 30:** plow i think he plows but like there's been like on the sidewalk considerable stuff yeah so i mean

**Speaker 39:** i noticed that like coming into the town office on either a school vacation or a snow day i'm still open i still need to have a clear walkway and area and didn't leave the parking lot open but it's the walkways that are on that option

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** i think it's just maybe the janitor doesn't realize or snow day means his day off too

**Speaker 7:** what's that does it in general does it mean i mean a snow day wouldn't necessarily pertain to a janitor right i mean it doesn't pertain to office staff and whatnot they all have union

**Speaker 4:** contracts now yeah yeah they all have union contracts so so if they get snow day if there's

**Speaker 16:** a snow they get snow days

**Speaker 1:** they get a snow day the janitor seems like a good day to shovel you're ready for the next day

**Speaker 7:** so it very well could be in most school districts they the office and support staff and janitorial staff are still there on snow days so i don't know it could be different obviously it's different

**Speaker 49:** from place to place but i don't know if the guys are there at my school because i'm not there so

**Speaker 7:** yeah

**Speaker 46:** are there our janitors are definitely in the school they're not union no they're not union the janitors are not no the office staff is also not i can't yeah we are the teachers are teachers

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** are but yeah the staff no all right so that's the question you said you weren't going to talk about yeah you said you were done you said you were done and i didn't answer the question i interrupted you i yes i think so yeah yes sir when we want to communicate and we have any issue whether it's this

**Speaker 19:** we ask and who do we go database

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** who y'all have my email you're you that's what you want it would be okay so you want us to call or communicate when the email to the chair of the school board if they're not there and i'm like when our staff is not there we have to be the chair or where at school staff find out who they're at and what's going on and tell me about that that you want to come and talk about this i have to be that how am i ll lift it up a little i've already got it that's all of that i have a little bit of information to me but yeah it i don't know the details i kind of except an email i know you have what you're interested in this minute y'all have my email y'all have my email you're you that's what you want however would your case okay so you want us to call or communicate with an email to the chair of the school board board if we have an issue. So we're going to leave everything as is.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Hopefully it'll be rosy and we can buy out Kurt.

**Speaker 1:** I predict we'll probably be back at some point. It could be six or seven years from now.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I won't be here. You'll be here Kurt and you'll be like, I told you so.

**Speaker 35:** But at least as things are now that there's a whole room full of people on different boards who are aware of the dynamics of the situation and are very likely to not just ignore it going forward. That it'll be dealt with in a much more efficient way.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** We need to communicate. Cindy, can I ask a question about what we're going to do in the future? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

**Speaker 50:** Because you actually said you were done.

**Speaker 4:** Yeah I wrote it down. Mike's done.

**Speaker 7:** We can play a menu.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Now with Reedsboro closing, do you as a School Board anticipate students will be coming here and I mean this. What 30 rules are 39 40 kids up there you think they'd all be coming.

**Speaker 4:** I mean I do speak with the chair, in Reedsboro, who is another Cindy they are desperate to know themselves because families are they're taking their time but it's something to take your time over because they have choices and they want the best for the children so currently we have I believe four students signed up for Stamford and one as a maybe we do know that that will change there's a letter that's going out from the superintendent and principal stating that we would like to know by May 15th if at all possible that's going to be our first deadline before summer because we really need to know and the Reedsboro chair needs to know because of busing and transportation so they know that they have two going to Clarksburg one going to Florida and at least the four are coming do they have to bus to all these schools? no and that's what they need to would they designate? no but if it's something that those I don't want to speak for them

**Speaker 7:** I'm surprised they're allowed to go out of state pardon? I'm surprised that they're allowed to go out of state

**Speaker 4:** because they're already a pre-k 6 school choice and and the school choice really pertains to 7-8 in high school until they until they merge or make other plans

**Speaker 51:** they're still under a school choice

**Speaker 7:** can I ask you about the funding mechanism? so I'm thinking about special education costs

**Speaker 4:** it still comes out of Reedsboro

**Speaker 7:** that's why I wondered whether it was the sending district or the

**Speaker 4:** so a regular education tuition will be paid per student to Stamford? Stamford and any additional fees or costs that fall into an IEP right right special education plan will then be built back to district yeah and there

**Speaker 5:** are multiple different schools in the supervisory union that don't have a school at all and so right we need tuition but they still get a charge from

**Speaker 24:** the supervisory union I think they have two that are planning to go to Twin

**Speaker 1:** Valley did I see somewhere that there was some kind of agreement with

**Speaker 9:** Clarksburg that was in the works that was just on I Berkshires and I think

**Speaker 4:** it's only to say that they'll take so taking some of them and whether that be by first come first serve or a lottery that's what will get decided thanks

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** that's right yeah back to busing so would the town have to vote we're gonna bust to Twin Valley only we're gonna pay for busing there and we're gonna pay only busing to Stamford we're gonna pay for busing there and we're gonna pay only busing to Stamford we're gonna pay for busing there and we're gonna pay only busing to Stamford

**Speaker 33:** would that be something the town has to vote on no I don't think the town has to

**Speaker 4:** vote on them I think it'll be dictated by the majority of the students

**Speaker 7:** I want what that's cool yeah well that's income it is I didn't know I mean cuz they want to promote our school yeah school choice funds are always good I didn't know how the special education funding went because if you're getting a flat amount and I know that it's going to be a lot of money for the school I want what that's cool yeah well that's income it is I didn't know how the special education funding went because if you're getting a Massachusetts they have a specific date October where as of that day whether you're enrolled there you know your money stays if you leave later but it's

**Speaker 4:** pretty much the same as a in Vermont but I don't know that it's October and I

**Speaker 51:** think they moved it earlier which was really crazy I know I don't it was an

**Speaker 7:** Adams issue you know they have different scenarios and Adams and it was an issue where I had read I know I don't it was an Adams issue you know they have different scenarios and Adams and it was an issue where I had read through a through their budget at one point and they had some financial issue because some of the students that they budgeted for then came back so they had paid the tuition to the other school and then they were educating the students and

**Speaker 4:** obviously and you might hear a complaint from a parent or two but we periodically send out oh I filled it out okay of course you did of course you did a residency I have filled out make sure that I mean sometimes stuff happens in life and so we want to make sure that the child and if you have

**Speaker 7:** a child going to another district you have to fill out a fairly extensive form as well and a part of that is proving your residency yeah yeah so our nose is

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** in everything so we're going to stay as is I like meeting in this format that we're close we're not even in the classroom you've seen we just seem to far apart and then somebody's got a side conversation here we can hear everybody and see everybody I like the process of this so thank you all for

**Speaker 52:** coming is there any other questions like I think I think that we should do this

**Speaker 1:** more often yes the three boards yeah not even quarterly twice a year anyway

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** pardon

**Speaker 7:** you never know what time it is

**Speaker 46:** this is a town property we can drink beer here no food and drink in the vault

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** ice cream over the cart oh my god can I make a motion to adjourn yes all right