---
title: "Stamford Select Board — March 19, 2026"
date: 2026-03-19
session: regular
speaker_labels: 1 cluster(s) named from the roll call and that meeting's chair in the minutes, 1 named from roster attendance, 19 of 21 clusters unnamed
voice_ids: {"SPEAKER_00":13,"SPEAKER_01":99,"SPEAKER_02":8,"SPEAKER_04":100,"SPEAKER_05":31,"SPEAKER_06":23,"SPEAKER_07":97,"SPEAKER_08":101,"SPEAKER_09":102,"SPEAKER_10":9,"SPEAKER_12":19,"SPEAKER_13":4,"SPEAKER_14":5,"SPEAKER_15":3,"SPEAKER_16":98,"SPEAKER_17":14,"SPEAKER_19":36,"SPEAKER_21":2,"SPEAKER_22":21,"SPEAKER_23":6,"SPEAKER_24":1}
duration_min: 145
audio: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ynAR0NrsRrSHXcx0_V1Jhel2eH817Tlt/view?usp=sharing
audio_source: town drive
minutes: https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Sbd%20Minutes%203-19-26.pdf
minutes_pending: false
present: [Nancy L. Bushika, Michael G. Denault, Kurt Gamari, John Dunn, Jedidiah Gramlin]
absent: []
transcribed: 2026-09-04 (faster-whisper large-v3, CUDA; names corrected per data/name_fixes.json)
diarization: pyannote/speaker-diarization-3.1 (automated; cluster labels may over-split a single voice; unattributed paragraphs have no reliable speaker)
---

# Stamford Select Board — March 19, 2026

**Session:** Regular · **Duration:** 145 min · [Audio](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ynAR0NrsRrSHXcx0_V1Jhel2eH817Tlt/view?usp=sharing) · [Minutes](https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Sbd%20Minutes%203-19-26.pdf)

**Present:** Nancy L. Bushika, Michael G. Denault, Kurt Gamari, John Dunn, Jedidiah Gramlin

---
**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Sessions are to be held in a calm and civilized manner and respectful of others. Select board members present are. Michael G. Denault. Nancy Bushika.

**Speaker 1:** Jed Gramlin. John Dunn. Kurt Gamari.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Will there be any adding of items or removing of items from tonight's agenda? Do you have correspondence?

I don't think I have really anything new. Okay. We may possibly. Yes. Possible executive session for.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Let's see how things go. Will there be any adjustments to the agenda, such as changing the order of the items? And, yes, the forest services here, they will be on first. And we also have Justin from Allstate Paving. And I'd like to switch Justin first, and then Martina Barnes will speak afterwards.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'd also like to enforce our.

**Speaker 2:** Okay, we have been very lax about that.

**Speaker 3:** How far are you coming from?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay. Tonight's meeting is being recorded on the YouTube video. First order of business is hearing the visitors. So, Justin, is it Justin? Yes, it is. From Allstate Paving.

**Speaker 4:** Yeah, Allstate Paternities Group.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** You're on.

**Speaker 4:** Yep. I just came down. We're going to honor the quoted price from last year. Okay. We're just going to repeat the price increase to get you guys on the board. You know, if you guys want to move forward, I'll work with Dave and get you guys on the calendar. And get you ahead of everyone, because we're starting to come into the busy season with the bids and estimates and all that kind of stuff.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** So, when you said put us on the calendar, when do you think these projects would start?

**Speaker 4:** As soon as I get it signed, I can look at our calendar and work on it with Dave. Yeah, there's one every year this season.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Do we have the contract, or will we have to sign it? Yeah, I think we'll work on it.

**Speaker 4:** I'll send you a copy of it. I sent you a copy of it. Yeah, this is the one.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** And do you know what road you'll be starting first?

**Speaker 4:** No, we'll work with Dave on that.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** And this is for the all three of you?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, can you verify, Dave, that this is what the people voted on, the exact price? Yeah. Okay. Because I don't have a fund. If that's the case, then we've got to get on the calendar. I'd like to make a motion that we sign this. Second.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** All in favor?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Aye.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Aye. 588, 567.

**Speaker 5:** So.

**Speaker 4:** Thank you. We appreciate the review. This is from the talent. That's why we honored the price. Thank you. Yes. Thank you because. It might be more common. Absolutely appreciate it. See how things go. Okay. Lori, can I have a copy of this afterwards? Yeah.

Just one signature. That's why I made a motion to sign it. Anything else for Justin today? We're good? No. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

**Speaker 4:** Thank you, Martina. You're up.

Okay. We'll come up. Yep. She has a poster.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I brought a whole, my whole group today.

**Speaker 6:** Okay.

You can. Is this your desk there? Yeah. Okay. She's got all kinds of people to hold a match up here. Put it on the floor. Put it on the floor. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Good

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

**Speaker 7:** Thank you.

Thank you.

**Speaker 6:** Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Wow. It's for us. White House. Hey. Not. Hello. Being Michael. 될? Yeah. You know, mars. 게요. happening in Stamford and if you have any other general questions about what's happening fortunately because we got this question the other night I just wanted to mention that on our ranger district we did have a few staffing cuts unfortunately but for the most part at the moment we are actually maybe getting a few seasonal employees to help support our work for the summer months but for the most part it seems like our operations are pretty stable at the moment despite what you might be hearing about cuts so the generally speaking the cuts are more of the Washington office and regional office levels not so much at the ranger district level but yeah just as you probably know there's a lot going on in Stamford and I've brought well we can everyone kind of maybe we can do a quick introduction so I just yes I'm Mary Beth and I'm the program manager here on the Manchester district and Stacy Stratton is the timber manager here on the district I'm Mary Beth Handling I'm a botanist so yeah we brought some staff and we just want to I know you have another bunch of topics to cover so we just thought we'd talk about specifically on the timber side of what's happening and if you have any specific questions regarding recreation Steve is here and then Mary Beth can talk about if you have specific questions. related to botany you know plants rare plants and what we do to protect those you know especially given or before also what we do to combat invasive plants as well she can speak to that we always try to do our best to protect the rare plants and control the invasive plants during our projects that happen in the forest so I'll probably turn it over to Stacy if you have any questions. actually before I do I did just want to quickly mention that the the park forestry donation or land acquisition that is still being planned but it's currently because of limited staffing we don't have a forest surveyor at the moment and that's the final survey is still in process so it's probably donations or land acquisitions are moving extra slow right now in the works but this map says we're accessing that parcel through what there just a bus or your car basically yeah it does that's a donation yeah yeah yeah just planning to do it as you know we do most of our first spring burning in the spring in April and May and so that that is tentatively on the schedule 23 acre units but when we notify you with all the notifications to the town and the fire warden and sheriff's department if there is like the day before the burn just to give you guys a heads up kind of trees you burn well those are some of the openings yeah they're openings so generally wildlife temporary wildlife opening areas so the great hunt forest yeah all right I'll start it off second place I don't know if Stacy talked about any all the timber happening timber sales just a little bit with this one here it's like so that was like part of the camp casino

**Speaker 8:** timber sale and and so they went in afterwards they masticated it ground everything down and then now it's at a point where they're going to burn it probably like every seven years or so they'll go back and burn it again just to keep the opening rotating around so we've got the you know the sales we talked about last year roaring brick which is on the 264 road that's in progress they made really you know really good gains on it this year got a good logger nail in the corner so even when it was bad weather you know a track vehicle you'll play with it place the skidder can. So we're doing really well. The Cardinal Brook, that one's Allard and they have a logger in there this winter. I don't know how much he's gotten done, you know, he's more like just a cable skidder type and that's slower. The Maltese sail, again, you know, same thing, you know, it's kind of a little slower, you know, smaller, smaller loggers. That's what we kind of designed it for, to get a variety of people. The Broad Brook sail, as you know, that's been going up off the Risky Ranch Road right now. Hunter Excavation has that and he's been in there cutting quite a bit this winter and, you know, he's been working with, you know, the town here quite a bit, you know, for the road crew to make sure, you know, some of that stuff's got, you know, when they're trying to plow, there's like a giant rock in the way. You don't know until you hit it with a, you know, a plow. So, you know, they've done a little bit of road work, you know, coordinating with the town. We do have a future timber sail and it's got, we call, it's called the Dome Timber Sail and it's over here. So it's north of the county road going up to Sucker Pond. So behind the gate. So we're going to do some management in there. It's going to be a stewardship. So it's going to be more than just timber. It'll be, you know, trying to, you know, take out some of those ruts, you know, water bar and get, you know, trying to get water back where it's supposed to be going because, you know, it kind of gets a lot of use in there that's probably not always the best. And so there's a lot of work to do in there. Plus, you know, I don't think there's going to be any planting out if there's money enough. There usually is. We've been putting a lot of oak in places trying to get a variety of trees in different spots where it fits. Any questions about these? I mean, we, you know, we've been at it for several years down here, but if you have any questions, yes. When will the logging operations be done on the Roaring Brook and Risky Ranch? I think, I think he's done now. I mean, you don't, I mean, well, he's for the season. For the season. But it's a five-year contract and it's been extended a couple times by the past administration and then this administration is probably going to extend it because of weather. You know, they're not getting a good winter. So I would like to think, you know, if we get another good winter, it'll be done. The guy, his name is Bill Brock, that's doing the cutting and he's, he's really efficient, you know. And that's, you said, what is it, three, three areas that you're cutting? Yes, yeah. So will they all be done for the season or done completely? So it'll be done for the season. Okay. And so once month season ends, they'll go in and they'll, where they've cut, they'll put the water bars in, take out any infrastructure that they put in. They've been kind of forwarding, I don't know if it's that Roaring Brook that, you know, the power line. Do they ever look forward? Gotta wait till after month season when it's too, too sloppy. It's like, yes. And that, so they'll probably be in there doing that. And then the other thing is like, so after we do a harvest, we call it site preparation. And it's like trees that, you know, smaller trees that are, they get knocked over or they're scarred up, which happens all the time. Someone's going to go in and we usually put a contract off of that. They just take brush saws and cut those trees down. And that gets enough daylight to the ground, especially if you take some beach out for a couple of years to let some other trees start growing, you know, give them a little bit of a head start. But I haven't been up there this winter. I try to stay out because I don't like meat logging trucks on narrow roads. I don't have a CB radio like my administrator does. But, you know, call ahead and say come in. I've had a couple of close calls in my time. But yeah, so they should be closing out for the season. And hopefully they've been working closely with the road crew for the town, you know, because I mean, I don't know if you guys have posted roads. I didn't really see anything on the way down. You probably have, right? Yes. Yeah.

**Speaker 9:** I was, have you consummated a deal with public land for trust for the broad book for last time you were here last year, it's hanging. That's the, uh, the park forestry mission. So that's, that's jumping. We see, and we have a lot. You can come to my house, pull up my side. My wife came out strange. They made great, they made great ones for England. They look like snakes. The other thing that's coming

**Speaker 8:** down here is beach. I mean, this area, there's a lot of clear beach, you know, something for the genetics a little bit. We try to find those, but beach leaf diseases are actually caused by a nematode, which is a microscopic worm. And they don't know where it came from. We don't know anything about the history of it, but like Reedsboro, especially down there, it's like just, it just, the forest is clear. It seems like last summer it exploded like last summer. It did. Yeah. Yeah. And so like we're out in the woods, we try to like make sure our boots get cleaned off when we get back. But, you know, just try not to, because, you know, if it's in the soil, we try not to spread things. You know, we try to be cognizant of that. But, yeah, that's something that's really coming out of the beach is they're not getting it there.

**Speaker 9:** It's interesting. I've been trying to get rid of my worms. I pile them up and I go down and throw them on Kurt's property. Yeah. I'm in the Brooks. It's the trout. They do love them. Oh, they do love them. They have a bird. No, but I'm serious. You're welcome to come. I mean, we have them. I don't know where the hell they're from.

**Speaker 6:** What's your...

**Speaker 9:** Oh, 1339. Yeah, what's your protected vote? 1339 rules.

**Speaker 10:** Question for the botanist. Before this project occurred, Cardinal Stream was up for reclassification to an A1 stream for aquatic biota. And Roaring Book was up for a designation for a Class B, which are both excellent streams.

**Speaker 11:** Okay.

**Speaker 10:** Post-operation, are those classifications still going to be possible? I actually would probably be the psychologist to be the person to answer that question. So I don't know the answer, but I can take your question. Sure. So hydrology for the village and down beyond here is another question that I would have. You know, how does this affect the hydrology of, you know, future water resources? Right. I mean, are those studies taking place before these operations occur?

Yeah, I don't know the answer to that question. What we do is... You did. I mean, we do have everybody come in. You know, I mean, we have our soil and we have our mitigation. Right. Yeah, that's definitely part of the... I'm just an hydrologist. I figured it was. Yeah. No, it's important. I just, I don't have the answer for you. Right. But you could... Sure. I'm sorry, Steve. We're using your pad for... And then also... Any other questions about the timber stuff or... Yes. Okay.

**Speaker 3:** Just curious as to how you negotiate your website to look up information on your active timber sets. It's gotten a little easier. Yeah, it's like... I get in there and I go to projects and the projects aren't even listed.

**Speaker 8:** They aren't? Okay. No, they... I'm sorry if they're not. I mean, I was just looking the other day and they seem to be on there, but...

**Speaker 3:** You know, I was able to find the one about the right way of 264, which I assume was... Sure. Right. You know, to allow Daryl Peacock to get to his camp or whatever it was. But, you know, I was looking for the...

**Speaker 6:** Yeah, I think the...

**Speaker 3:** The maps for the actual timber sales to see what... See what units were still... were being logged and which ones weren't. Yeah. And whether or not that they are conducive to summertime logging or realtime logging or...

**Speaker 8:** If we get your name on that, because, you know, like as far as future projects, we have, you know, we're the government, everything has an acronym. So we call it SOPA, which is Schedule of Proposed Actions. And so, like I said, if you want, we can send a link and we'll get, you know, if you want to put your name down here and I can send stuff back to you. Yeah. Then there's the link. Yeah. It's like any website, especially... Especially ours is not the best. We're trying to get it better, but...

**Speaker 6:** And I think part of the way it's confusing to... The tim... Each of these timber sales is... I mean, they're also part of the Route 9...

**Speaker 8:** Part of a bigger project.

**Speaker 6:** Yeah, they're part of another, like... Oh, yeah. It's not like individually... Believe me. Okay. You've gone down that rabbit hole.

**Speaker 3:** I've been trying to find a route that I can think of. Okay. I knew how I got there before and I didn't think it would be the same.

**Speaker 8:** No, we have... We've moved it around. We've tried to improve it, which, you know, it's... But, no, if we have your information, like, I can send you a link directly to help you with some of that. And then I can send you some maps, too. Like, a lot of, like, my sale area maps, they're made through ArcMap. And it's georeferenced. So if you have Avenza, which is free, it's an app on your phone, you can load my timber sale maps right now and navigate like it's a map.

**Speaker 3:** I guess I should just go see Nancy. I see she's got one right there.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** That's one, yeah. They gave it to me last year.

**Speaker 12:** I have a question. Yeah, go ahead. I'm wondering, are you doing anything preventative at all about the Japanese beetles? I used to live in Worcester and was there when that infestation came through and hit the maples. And I'm just... And I was reading something recently that they're thinking that they're migrating up this way.

**Speaker 8:** You mean the spongy moths or the Japanese beetles? The Japanese beetles. They've been here forever. They're here. They're here. Yeah, they're kind of endemic here. They just kind of, you know, up and down the populations a little bit. But they've been here for a while. We don't have any things that I know of, but like spongy moth, which, you know, the old name was gypsy moth. Yeah, yeah. And that's like in that over there. And that's in Emerald Ash Borer in this area.

It's like... She could get... Sorry. She could get... Do you... Are you familiar with Vermont invasives? No, I'm not.

**Speaker 12:** That's a website. Okay. Are you familiar with getting online?

If you type in Vermont...

**Speaker 13:** If you type in vermontinvasives.org, it will give you all the information on invasive

species in the states. And so you can look up and see. They'll give you a profile and give you kind of where it is and what they're doing and...

**Speaker 12:** Yeah. No, I just wondered because we think... In Worcester, they lost thousands of maple trees, you know, as a result of the warring that they were doing. So it seems like...

**Speaker 14:** And then you could also...

**Speaker 6:** I mean, you could... If you know your county or what... Are we in Wyndham County? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you can ask... I think we can ask you if you want to contact the county forest or specifically on your... Cause for issues like that on your private property, the county forest for Reddington County, also even I think like that's the service that like what they provide, they can give

**Speaker 12:** you, you know, how to manage or something like that.

**Speaker 3:** Okay. All right. Thank you. I have one more question. Does the forest service still have anything like they used to have, you know, more than that? No.

**Speaker 15:** they used to have years ago with ranger savings um i i know because everything has to go through

**Speaker 8:** but what i do have is like you know when we're that's one of the things that we're short-staffed i was like firewood you know like i'd mark a lot of you know dead and down and get a firewood permit it's ten dollars a quarter our district doesn't have that right now we just don't have some way that can do it because it's money you know so you have to have special clearance um but i go out and i mark a lot of timber on the roadside for people you know to cut firewood that's about as much as i can do to help that but yeah we don't have like any we just can't

**Speaker 3:** the reason i asked is i know a really nice white ash stand on off of route 8 in searsburg just north of the vast trail corner okay and it's going to be a shame to see that stuff end up just lying there on the ground

**Speaker 8:** actually in this whole across the forest we have a i don't want to call it spreading because it's not what we're doing is like we're going into some areas like that like they only have like you know like superior ash and we're inoculating the trees and so we put a little hole in and we put a pesticide in that goes through the bark and if there's anything in there gets killed and we're just hoping that we have a seed source left when it goes through like i came from pennsylvania before hearing the allegheny oh yeah there's nothing

**Speaker 3:** in there but that particular stand right there was probably within 300 yards of room eight and every downstream there is already dead two years ago and this stuff is still in reasonably good

**Speaker 8:** shape and it may be in a project we're doing that because like you know we have several other big projects without knowing i think i know where you talk it's on room eight I can book because we have an early secessional habitat project that's going on and we may already have a stand in there that I just don't know about yet. It might be a good one to walk into. I'll send my silviculturist. We've been walking a lot over the last couple of days. Are you using biologics in any areas? No. What we're trying to kill is just we can't go willy nilly with it. Like when I was in the severe natural forest there's tansy out there. There's one hormone you can spray on the tansy that only affects tansy and it grows itself to that. Then you just walk along and spray everything. But here it's pretty strict.

**Speaker 16:** I've heard in the neighboring states they're using a moth.

**Speaker 10:** They're experimenting with a moth.

**Speaker 8:** We're pretty careful about that. We don't work with them on it. We don't introduce something that's worse like carp. That's a good example. We've got milfoil so let's bring carp in. They like milfoil but they like the other stuff better. We have special wasps that they're trying on some of these things. I like purple loosestrife. There's special beetles that really like purple loosestrife. The 20 years I've been in they're still working at it to make sure it doesn't like anything else. They're trying some things. That's through the Northern Research Station. It's kind of interesting. One's still out and I see him. Back to the plants.

**Speaker 17:** Plant stuff. Pogweed. Someone was supposed to get back to us but we can spray it. You guys are opening up a lot of areas now and that stuff is growing really fast. Pogweed. It's growing.

**Speaker 18:** Keep an eye on your eyes.

Pogweed.

**Speaker 19:** Pogweed. Pogweed.

**Speaker 10:** Pogweed. Put a white flower on it. That will burn right down to the bone if you get it on you. It is around in areas that have been caught.

**Speaker 20:** You're getting into a couple of different areas.

**Speaker 3:** I see poison parsnip and .

**Speaker 17:** Cut it off below the ground and then you bury the root and it's supposed to kill it. But we don't want to get next to it when we're doing trail work. So we were supposed to check in to see if we could spray something on it. We didn't know what we could use it for. Dig it out. Don't touch it.

**Speaker 6:** I mean without I don't know what the...

**Speaker 13:** I know if we don't have giant Pogweed here. If we have a native Pogweed. So I'm not sure if we need to visit the site. It's all up there.

**Speaker 17:** You go up in the old stagecoach area up on stagecoach in Woodford. It's all in there.

**Speaker 6:** There's the giant versus the native. Like is there a... I've seen it down here in Stamford down here too. It's probably... Yeah, that's a stake. Yeah. It grows up pretty tall. So she's saying that that's not the giant. The giant one is like... The giant one is like really giant.

**Speaker 21:** Yeah.

**Speaker 13:** It's like could be like eight... Eight feet. At least eight feet tall if not more.

**Speaker 17:** Because what we do is we'll take a shovel and cut it low and burr.

**Speaker 13:** And then you push it down. So then, yeah, it's definitely we can spray it.

**Speaker 22:** We can spray it on there and kill it.

It is a native plant. But it does have some contact dermatitis. Some of the plants in the ACA, the carrot family, do that. Like, well, poison parsnip.

**Speaker 13:** Well, sure.

**Speaker 17:** And then we'll spray it on the trail. We don't want to leave it there because somebody might get it on.

**Speaker 23:** Yeah.

**Speaker 17:** Yeah. And then spray it. Yeah.

**Speaker 24:** Thank you.

**Speaker 6:** I know where we've been here.

**Speaker 25:** We should probably...

**Speaker 26:** Access trails, dispersed recreation. You know, we've got the Appalachian Trail and Long Trail running through here. Offer some snowmobile trails. We've been working with VASA on the summer off-highway vehicle system. Some of the dispersed sites we have, the Seth Warner Shelter, we moved that up the trail a little bit further. It was kind of between Klondike, Risky Ranch, and County Road. Now it's like further up where we don't have as many user group conflicts. We used to have partying there. I guess that was moved to the skidder in the 80s. So it's been moved around a few times. Now it's completely rebuilt. We haven't heard any issues between groups down there. The Green Mountain Club have done a bunch of work on the Appalachian Trail up to Risky Ranch. Some improvements. But, yeah, we have limited recreation sites down there. We've got a lot of snow on the Appalachian Trail. We've got a lot of snow on the Appalachian Trail. We've got a lot of snow on the Appalachian Trail. We've got a lot of snow on the Appalachian Trail. We've got a lot of snow on the Appalachian Trail. Some improvements. But, yeah, I just wanted to emphasize our partnerships. Green Mountain Club, Bass, and Bassive. Without them we wouldn't really be able to manage the miles that we have. So it's something that we have done a little bit of work on. But, yeah, we haven't heard any issues between groups down there. The Green Mountain Club have done a bunch of work on the Appalachian Trail up to Risky Ranch. Some improvements. But, yeah, we have limited recreation sites down there. We've got a lot of snow on the Appalachian Trail. Some improvements. But, yeah, we have limited recreation sites down there. We've got some trail heads. It's just over the line in Reeds Grove on Hartvilleville. That's another big one. It's just over the line in Reeds Grove on Hartwellville. It's another big one. But, yeah, I just wanted to emphasize our partnerships. You know, Green Mountain Club, VASA, without them, we wouldn't really be able to manage the miles that we have. And I appreciate all the local clubs, Tom, and folks that help do the brushing, like you're saying, along those corridors, the water bar maintenance, without having partners out there, you know, the works wouldn't get done at the level that we need. So, thank you. How was that stuff? So, after the timber sale, opportunity. Stacey mentioned there's just funds. So, it'll be used for skidding and hauling. We'll be able to improve it. The timber sale, we'll probably seek some funding. What's the word for that area now? Oh, it's the meadow sale, right? It's drawn here.

**Speaker 8:** It's just the area now. We haven't been up there really to do any, you know, boundary work,

**Speaker 27:** you know, or cutting units.

**Speaker 6:** It's on the left of here.

**Speaker 22:** So, this, you know, here's Lake Hancock, Sucker Pond. That's Sucker Pond Trail. So, it runs right through it. So, basically, we're going from the Appalachian Trail to the Pond. So, it's a pretty big section in there. If that is used, you know, for hauling and timber,

**Speaker 26:** that's going to get the trail up. And it is, right. I don't know if you've been out there. There is that. Yeah, I go through there with the snowmobile. Not really. You know, that trail's been open all winter for snowmobiles, so we still have it open for motorized use. We just have to get it a little closer to our standards for safety. I, unfortunately, struggle to get in there just on our pole there. So, you'd see. I can make it out on, like, a regular four-wheeler, but we have to be able to access it on our own for maintenance and safety. If there was ever a search and rescue, we don't even have the equipment to get in there ourselves with, you know, the gear. So, that's kind of the minimum level we'll be looking for.

**Speaker 28:** One quick question for you.

**Speaker 3:** There was talk years ago about relocating some of the ATV trails from Dutch Hill to Dobney Road. Is that still in the works? I mean, there's Legal Trail 1 running right across Dutch Hill. Right. But there was some problems with some of the landowners there. And I know you had people out here working on a relocation route. And I was just curious if that was something that was ever.

**Speaker 26:** So, I know VASA had done some work on that. We're waiting for a trail proposal from Reef Road. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, there's basically at least four sections in the Reef Road town ordinance that have been ATV used on the forest. So, we're going to see if that lines up with our priorities. But we weren't really part of that relocation. I think that was some local work going on.

**Speaker 6:** Thanks for your time.

**Speaker 29:** I think I was right for you to raise your hand. I thought you had questions. This may or may not have anything to do with you. It's more of the loggers. But when it was much more of a local work, we were able to get some of the money probably a week and a half ago or so. I believe the roads were posted. We had they were offloading a lot of their equipment, not on the trailers, but they were literally driving down mill road with their massive excavators. You could barely get by. So when they would pull over to let a car go by, it would just push all the gravel into our ditches. So I'm wondering. set aside for reclaiming our ditches and rebuilding our roads because these weren't just little excavators. And going over our bridges, which they aren't rated for. They don't have that axle span. They just drive over the bridges, which are 24,000. And you know these things

**Speaker 30:** are probably 10 times that. And this is not like, you know, I'm not trying to be dismissive when I say this, but that's beyond our jurisdiction. Right, that's what I'm asking. Who would we

**Speaker 8:** reclaim any funds for? That would be the logger. They're the ones that did the damage. If they were on like one of our roads, we would go after them for like crushed culverts and things like that. And it sounds formal when I say it, but you know, it's like, you know, as it's not meant to be that way. It's like, well, once it hits town roads, our jurisdiction ends. I mean, we try to work with them and say, hey, you shouldn't be doing that right now. But we have, we can't stop them. You know, once they're on, you know, town land, we can't, we have no jurisdiction. Okay. But if they've done some damage, I mean, hopefully someone has documented it and then, you know, they can go and say, hey, you guys have done

**Speaker 29:** pictures. It's like driving on a battle guard going up there. So they came off like the

**Speaker 8:** Roaring Brook Road and then...

**Speaker 29:** Yeah. Yeah. So they went over three bridges. Two excavators that I saw. The bridges on Miller, don't you mean? Miller. Yeah. There was a guy last night that I talked to.

**Speaker 8:** My sailor, I think his name was Bill Garrison, to see, you know, what, and see what we, you know, I'm just like to identify who it was.

Okay.

**Speaker 29:** And again, I don't mean it to be, you know, it sounds formal when I say it's, it's, it's

not our jurisdiction. No, it's not, you know, we just don't have that.

**Speaker 29:** Yeah. It's not your jurisdiction that you gave them.

**Speaker 8:** No, it's not our jurisdiction. Okay. I mean, I don't mean it to be, you know, it sounds formal when I say it's, it's, it's not our jurisdiction. No, it's not, you know, we just don't have that.

**Speaker 30:** No, that's what I mean, you know, that's, you know, that's the, you know, that's the

**Speaker 8:** thing. It's like once, you know, it's like even liability, it's like, you know what I mean, it's like once it hits a town road, it's, it's like for us, I, for us, we have no, um, you know, we don't have any money. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. jurisdiction on any of that and it's it's not a cop out it's just you know that's just you know how it is for us you know it's uh i wish it was different but but i'm hoping that they would be working with you know the town because again if the road's posted they have to you know that's

**Speaker 30:** a lot of big machinery you know to be going on that road and i was told last night that

**Speaker 29:** you've been posting a road you don't have to abide by it i don't know i mean again if they

**Speaker 8:** used to be in there that's what the laundry's i yeah i don't know to be honest with you

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** yeah thank you thank you for all this time

**Speaker 6:** this is great thank you but um we'll get her information over before we and here's just the copy of it it's a little outdated but it's a five-year temperament and this is the you may have received it with just like our 2020 number six like counts it's a lot longer but it's just a

two-page all right awesome the shutdown that lasted okay thank you okay is there any other hearing visitors before we move on

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** yeah

**Speaker 12:** i'll look it up there because i think they said that there

is coming up this way yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah can we continue on with the meeting yeah something oh go ahead

**Speaker 31:** something all right uh so just with everything that's going on globally right now i wanted to bring some things to your attention i checked with laurie before the meeting pretty much i don't know how much of this i want to cover because it's not very good news but pretty much everything on this list over the years i've given letters and information about how to deal with it okay the first letter i sent out okay so with the straight up or moves closed a third world's nitrogen has been shut down on a book this is going to start impacting a to z then you have the farmers use a lot of diesel trucks moved goods so number one and number two kind of go together find letters that i gave to the town with covid what you can do to build your immune system lord's got copies of everything the first letter i ever letter I ever sent out. China and Russia are both supplying Iran with satellite and targeting info. It's just a matter of time before the first move goes up. I'll do a warning for you over here. Don't expect anything here except maybe a dirty bomb, which isn't going to affect us. But the first letter I sent to the townspeople was how to survive fallout from a nuclear bomb. Okay. The last one, number five, and this really affects the select board. I'm probably going to get real. Part of the reason I put on the resiliency fair was two-fold. To give people skills, become self-sufficient with food and animals. The other was to build a bridge between the liberals and conservatives in town, which our country is pretty divided. It worked pretty good. Okay. I know I got a lot of conservatives in town. I got a lot of conservatives in town. I got a lot of conservatives in town. I got a lot of conservatives in town upset with me hanging out with liberals and they're like, Dan, I'm going to brainwash you. No, we can agree on certain things. I can't control anything on this list except what goes on in Stamford in my little sphere. Okay. I would hate to see Stamford fall into the number five civil unrest. And that's where a strong select board, right? Fourth Amendment. I know you don't take an oath to the federal government, but in the state government you take an oath to. There's got to be one in there that's similar to the fourth. You take an oath to the federal, to the constitution. The federal? Yeah. Okay. The fourth, if you stand on that hard in town, they'll keep one out and hanging them in a tree. Then is what protects the speedy trial. So that's pretty much it. I don't want. Laura's got copies. The big one. The nation from the last year immune system. They'll detox to get that out. It's a spike protein. I went on, but that will get that out of your system. It's like this next one. Isn't going to be like cool with this next one. I expect to kill, you know, 30, 40. And so you want your immune system as high as you can. Thank you, Dan. Any other questions? We've had two. We don't have one planned for.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** No, I know. Okay. I'm here for discussion on something like the planning board, but

**Speaker 32:** I'm not too handy at reading of this. So I asked Irene if she would come in and read the letter. Now names in this letter. I don't know. Do we just say so-and-so or do we say

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** their name? What's the letter in regards? It's just, it's just the same letter. Do

**Speaker 32:** you email it out? No, that this is the one that I've, it's all into that. Take a quick

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** look at it. See what he thinks.

**Speaker 33:** This is where you filled the names into the. Yeah. So I, you know, I wasn't sure how you

**Speaker 34:** felt about reading it out in a public hearing. Well, you're presenting it. I mean, I don't

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** have a problem with the names of you, but I do think that this is a bigger issue that we need to, once we go, once we hear it. So do you want the names? I don't have a problem with the names of the board. I have no idea what it is. No? Okay. Okay. All right. I have no idea. Because what was said to us was unsigned, no names, that it was nothing.

**Speaker 2:** That's how I felt.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** It's what I gave Laurie, and it, she should have put her name on, saying that, oh, she's got it, right? Well, no, that's not up to her. Well, just received, but it's like an unsigned letter. No, that's not up to her. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

**Speaker 32:** Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

**Speaker 35:** Okay.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

**Speaker 12:** Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

**Speaker 12:** Okay. She has difficulty reading stuff, so I'm reading it. So it's to the Town Clerk, Lori, Select Board Planning Commission, and to the State Ethics Commission of Vermont. I, Sheila, am writing to formally lodge a complaint regarding a conflict of interest involving Jed Gramlin, a member of the Town of Stamford Select Board, Lisa Gramlin, Clerk of the Planning Commission, and Jim Stinson, the newly appointed Chair of the Planning Commission. The conflict. Jed Gramlin currently serves on the Select Board and appointed to be the Select Board's ethics liaison. However, he recently participated in an action by voting and approving for the removal of two members, reducing the Planning Commission nine-member board to seven members advocated for by his wife, Lisa Gramlin, and the newly appointed Chair of the Planning Commission, Jim Stinson, during a Select Board meeting on Match the 5th. The procedural issue. Because Jed Gramlin is the designated ethics liaison, there is no neutral internal path to resolve this grievance. His dual role as both the subject of the conflict and the person responsible for ethics oversight constitutes a fundamental breakdown of impartial governance. The restructuring of the Planning Commission includes Deborah Burchard, the zoning administrator, retaining her position as a planning board member who can vote. Though it is not against Vermont statute for holding these dual positions, it is highly recommended by the VLCT and the State of Vermont to veer away from allowing this, as it can become rife with perceived conflict of interest issues. Planning Commission members' responsibility to decide to approve or remove ineffective bylaws work on the Town Plan, along with site plan review for new and existing changes for the Town, governed by a State statute. As a voting member of the Planning Commission and being the zoning administrator responsible for enforcing the bylaws, the zoning officer should not create the perceived atmosphere of conflict of interest, as the person holding both positions should not be advocating for any changes that must be enforced while holding the alternate position as zoning administrator. The way to protect from this perception is for the person holding dual positions to recuse themself from all discussion regarding changes to the bylaws that must be enforced. In the past, former zoning officers participated as ad hoc to the Planning Commission, providing a less controversial approach. path. Ad hoc members do not vote but are important for providing input with what is going on with bylaw enforcement, site plan reviews, participate listening to the proposed changes and giving input from the zoning administrators perspective as to why the new or altered bylaw could help town stability through proper enforcement without the hint of a perceived conflict of interest by not being a voting member. Requested action. I request that Jed Gramlin recuse himself from all matters involving the planning commission. I request that Deborah Burschard consider that holding both positions can abso-rate the perceived conflict of interest contributing to the lack of trust in town governance. I request that Jed Gramlin, Lisa Gramlin, Jim Stinson and any select board member having x-party discussions involving changes to any of the board's outside of posted meetings cease and desist. I request that the select board appoint it independent third-party legal counsel of the council. Thank you soogen. or temporary liaison to investigate this matter as the current internal process is compromised. Sincerely, Sheila Lawrence, former Planning Commission member for 25 years, Town of Stamford.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** So none of us have a copy of that letter.

**Speaker 36:** You have the other paper that is what this is going to be.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** No, it's not the same thing. So the other paper that was submitted to us, my opinion is, and I don't know the board, but it's unsigned and there's no names in there. You know, it says fill in the blanks. So do you want to discard that first letter that you gave to Lori?

**Speaker 36:** It says respect to Sheila Lawrence down there, doesn't it?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** On the letter that was submitted to us, this one.

**Speaker 32:** And there's a second page that has it.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yeah, but it doesn't say anything in there. It inserts wife's name. I'm just, maybe I'm picking too much, but it's... It says insert wife's name. We kind of know what's going on. But if this letter replaces this one, then I'd say we ignore this one.

**Speaker 34:** And it will all be used down.

**Speaker 12:** Lori's making copies for us.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay. Because I don't want to ignore this, but it's...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** What was that time that you used for actually... Sheila wrote the letters last, but what was the time that you used for a person that is still invited to the meeting and doesn't have voting? What's that?

**Speaker 32:** What I'm thinking is, is like what Ron taught me.

In the letter, in the letter, what's it called? I don't know if she starts with the letter. It's called ad hoc in the letter. Oh, that's what she wrote. It's the ex officio. All right. So it's ad hoc.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Is that how you said it? Yeah, A-D-H-O-C. It's simple for me. Well, that's why I'm asking you. You wrote the letter, so I want to know what you meant by that.

I have to.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Because I don't know what it is. I've never heard of that term, ad hoc.

**Speaker 32:** Basically, basically, basically, basically, it's like a one-off.

It's what?

**Speaker 12:** It's a one-off. An ad hoc.

**Speaker 32:** But if you're, if you're,

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I've never heard of it.

**Speaker 32:** You place the board, okay, and you come in, you're the AO officer. All right? You know some things that should be changed and everything, but when you get onto the board, that leads you out where you can vote as well, which shouldn't be. Okay? That's the feeling I have. Right.

**Speaker 12:** You should be able to offer your, I just didn't know what that term was.

**Speaker 32:** I just wanted to get, that's why I had her read it so I can get it in the knock. Okay.

**Speaker 19:** Bill? Is the first unsigned letter what you were referring to in your executive meeting two weeks ago?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** No, no, no.

**Speaker 19:** That's a.

**Speaker 3:** That's came after.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yes.

**Speaker 3:** Is that public, letter of public record?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** This one?

**Speaker 3:** No, from two weeks ago.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** There was no letter. I have to go back.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah, this wasn't anything to do with this. No, this wasn't anything to do with this. The executive session last meeting had nothing to do with this. Right.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** We addressed the letter.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That was about personnel and I'll be talking about finances. There was nothing to do with this situation.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** This is two things.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I do.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** The other, last meeting, it was a different topic and I believe we addressed that.

**Speaker 37:** But I want to speak.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yeah.

**Speaker 38:** Okay.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Jim?

**Speaker 37:** Yes, ma'am. I want to set the record straight.

I am not the chairman. Of the planning commission, nor did I want to be.

**Speaker 37:** I stayed right where I'm at. I'm the vice chair. Period. Stephanie is the chair. Okay. So, false on that, that information.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Have you reorganized your planning commission?

**Speaker 37:** We did everything above board. We did everything that the record, I mean. Who is the new chair? Stephanie Shelburne, Dr. Shelburne. So, and that I totally disagree with. Can you repeat that? So, the latter said you're a chair? Yes. Okay. And so, and the other fact that I had communications with these other people and discussion as to who's going to be at what, after the meeting? No, that's something that you did, not me. I never did that. I've never spoke to any member of that committee, of our planning commission, requesting to be the chair or the vice chair or anything else. Period. Never did. That's the whole point. That's the whole point. That's the whole complaint from the old board. Yeah. As a. I just wanted to set the record straight as to the untruth. On another note, I do agree with Sheila about the fact with the AO. It's been that way. When I was the AO, I did not sit on the planning committee, but I did not miss a planning committee meeting. I sat right out here, and it was. I didn't want to be on the Planning Commission, nor was I ever asked to be, and at that point it was explained to me that the AO could not be on the Planning Commission because of the conflict of interest. If we all could read the ethics law, and we all have, I know we have. The ethics law is not, if it's not written as a law, but it's perceived as a violation, is the law itself. So I agree with her on that part. So that's just an argument that I have on my own, and other people have on their own. The Select Board has decided that that was okay. Or maybe they didn't decide at all, maybe that's just what happened. But, um, anyways.

**Speaker 10:** Can I ask you a question? Yes. So if the zoning administrator is in conflict, would sit on a planning board?

**Speaker 39:** No. There's specific law, the law is read, and I can, there is not a number, but it does.

**Speaker 9:** I can recite that for you.

**Speaker 37:** Two, three, it said, no, you know, there isn't a large number, they said. Well, could it be a perceived conflict? They discourage more than two others. Why would it not be a perceived conflict if someone perceives it as a conflict?

**Speaker 9:** They encourage it. They do two different things. State statute says that anybody on the ZBA or the Planning Commission, they generally vote from the planning board. Let me finish.

**Speaker 10:** One talk. Oh, I'm sorry, Jim.

**Speaker 40:** I thought you were done.

**Speaker 13:** One talk.

**Speaker 10:** Go ahead. Well, essentially, the AO is enforcing the laws that are written by the planning board, right? ZBA is doing the exact same thing. Yeah.

So this is what I'm on the exact same thing. I actually have been trying to talk, and only Jim is the one who is speaking. That's okay. Go ahead.

**Speaker 37:** Anyways, so I just want to make sure that everybody understands the fact that the Planning Commission, I'm the vice chair. Stephanie Shelburne is the chairperson. What Jed has anything to do with is that I have no clue where that came from or why it ever came up. We're just all in this together.

**Speaker 41:** No, I'm not kidding.

**Speaker 37:** We take care of each other in the whole town, okay? It's not just a competition to see how many boards we can be on and not have anything, you know, substance to say out of me other than wondering what we did last week, all right? So that's the whole issue with that. I'm just saying I agree with her on some of the things that they wrote, but I disagree on the fact that she really doesn't know what she's talking about. Again, this is the major problem. I'm not kidding. Okay.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So before we call on David, I agree with you, Curt, on there's so many perceived things in this town. So I read which ones you can sit on, which ones you can't sit on. Very, very few can you not sit on. Most of them you can have joint board memberships. And the reason is we get too many people that want to do it. This town's fortunate. I've said that many times that we get people actually running against each other. We have competition when it comes to elections. That being said, the word perceived and the word ethics changes. If I was to ask her a question and go all the way down and ask him, your ethics may be different. Your perceptions are different. That's why the only part of this letter I would like to address is if Jed is the ethics liaison and there's a complaint about his family, one of his family members, then I could see that being coming. So we would need, because I know when Doug was on, we had more than one. Correct. That's how you got it. So we should look at that as a board. Other than that, if one of my family is a member of our board, there's no, that's not a conflict in my opinion. And that's what it is. Every one of these things are opinions. And that's where we've got to decide what's opinion and what's law.

**Speaker 42:** I mean, his vote was inconsequential.

**Speaker 10:** Well, I know. So even if Jed's eliminated, it's still four to zero. Right.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** But we have had members in this town on three and four awards.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Do we know it's illegal to have the AO be on the planning commission? No. It's not a violation. It's not? Do we know that? Where does it say it? It's an exception. It's an exception.

**Speaker 10:** I could have sat on there as a select board member. I chose not to because of this whole perceived conflict. That's why I didn't do it.

There's a perception that people may not agree with. And that was your choice? That was my choice. I just did it because I knew all this was coming.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** When I became a selectman, and no offense to you at all, but you were on three boards. You were a selectman when I came on. You were on the planning committee. You were on the zoning committee. And actually, you were on the cemetery committee, or whatever that's called. Conservation committee. Conservation, yeah. So you were on a lot of boards. I mean, that's just the way it is. But you never heard me bring one piece into it.

Well, I don't know. I can't remember anything that you did. That's not the point.

**Speaker 32:** My point is that many people sit on different boards. That's what I'm saying.

I'm not doing one. Yeah. Oh, no. Of course. I mean, Danny did. David did. I don't know. Kurt did. Yeah. David did. I don't know. I don't know.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

**Speaker 43:** Just to clear up what's going on.

**Speaker 9:** There is no, it is not illegal for the zoning officer to be on the planning commission. In fact, when I was part of appointing dad, I said at the time, and to Jim, when I appointed Jim, that even though it's not illegal, because you're developing new laws, and you're and then we have to adjudicate them. You're right for conflict of interest. I'd like to go right into my thing now.

**Speaker 44:** Are we done with this topic?

**Speaker 9:** No, I got one more comment for Kirk because it's important.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** On this topic?

**Speaker 45:** Yes.

**Speaker 9:** Okay. To remove a position, you have to have a unanimous decision. So Jed can't vote because his wife is on me. But let me finish. Okay, but that's incorrect. I know it was somebody here, Peter Gramlin, and Jim took his position, so that left the position open. And I don't know, watching the video that you guys came up with this year should be off.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So to remove a member of a board in the middle of their term, you need a unanimous decision. But to change the structure of the board, you do not. So that's what we did, we changed the structure of the board. We went from nine to seven, no matter who it was.

**Speaker 9:** So he didn't have to vote. He probably shouldn't have voted.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, that was up to him. That would, like, Kirk said, it was important.

**Speaker 46:** How would you resolve the issue with him?

**Speaker 10:** If it's more up than that, it's unanimous, isn't it? No. He's got to be able to vote. How would you even proceed if he can't vote?

**Speaker 9:** You wouldn't.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You can't, right?

**Speaker 10:** You can't.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'm down with it if they say it backwards.

**Speaker 47:** Are we ready to go on to the next one?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's all I have. But what I would like to do as a board, I'd like to discuss it. I'd like to discuss this for decision-making of, to adjust some things. Because there are some things that, just like Jim said, there are some things I agree with, some things I disagree with, some things I feel are. In order to do that, I don't think we have 15 minutes. It's going to take a lot longer than 15 minutes. And I think it should be among the board members at that moment.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I would like a little more time to read the letter. This is the first I've heard of that, because it's different than what we received. So do we want to? Do you want to save that for executive session tonight?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, I would like to at least bring it up. Maybe we'll have to discuss it a little bit more. And I do feel we need to address it. We can do that whenever. You can put it on the next meeting with the ethics liaison and ethics board, whatever, committee, whatever you want to call it. I had multiple people. That just came up before it was done. We had multiple people on it for that reason, to make sure that there's no perceived conflict.

**Speaker 2:** So we should look at that.

**Speaker 9:** Did you see the letter today? It was from the select board, basically saying that my complaint was discussed in executive session and resolved. And I want to bring up two things about that. An open meeting violation cannot be discussed in executive session. The letter should have been read, because the letter I sent you said to be read. And you should have adjudicated that in the open. So in itself, that's another violation on top of the violation of the open meeting law. What's this? I don't know what you're talking about.

Excuse me.

**Speaker 9:** I don't know what you're talking about. So and essentially, what happened? What's this? The same one you just gave us? I'm sorry.

100 people. What's that? What you guys sent to me. Oh, OK. You can look at it. What'd you say, John?

**Speaker 9:** So there's a ton of 800 people we can't get along with. OK. Go on. I'm sorry. Go on. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. OK. So there's two violations going on. I was not allowed to speak during the meeting when in the thing. It was just my wife and I there. They had a visitor. They were talking about how to reorganize the ZBA to a DVR. And after he was done, I wanted to say something first. They wouldn't let me. They said, no, save it for after. And all I have to do is listen to the tape. It's all there. Bottom line is, when I could say, I raised my hand like this, 15 minutes, and anybody have a question, and somebody said, Dave Selva has one. Well, I'm not letting him speak. And I said, excuse me, I have one question to ask this person from the ZBA regarding the ZBA versus the DVR. I just wanted to know what the benefits were. I'm not for it or against it. I just wanted him. He's there. That's the time to ask the guy the question. So I was threatened to get thrown out, hollered at, embarrassed me and my wife, terribly so. And that's why, for the first time in my life in 50 years in this town, I wrote a letter saying, I'm not, I've had enough. I'm not taking it anymore. I was hoping that you would bring that up in a public meeting. It wasn't on the notes that your wife wrote. And the only way you could find it is on the tape, to listen to it, plus we were here. That whole thing should have been discussed in an open meeting, not executive session, positioned to solve for another violation. So where I stand now, it was 14 days long before I got this letter. So that's a denial. My only recourse from you, that's a denial. My only recourse now is either to take it up to the attorney general or the superior court over in Bankton. All I, in my letter, do you have the letter in 18?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I did, I probably left it. Well, it was an email.

**Speaker 9:** I, it was an email signed, it was a letter.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I, I didn't even have a letter.

**Speaker 9:** But the bottom line simply is I asked for, what do you want? And on the bottom, I put on it, I just want Peter to allow me to have a say, like everybody else in town, and not to be treated. Jim, you were there. I asked for the board to vote, and what did you guys do? Because they had a right to vote over I, Peter, to let me say something. What did you do, Jim? I didn't move down.

Yeah, he ignored you.

**Speaker 9:** He ignored you. I wasn't the chair. I'm talking about the board.

**Speaker 48:** No, you're bringing my name up.

**Speaker 9:** You're accusing me of something. No, you were one of them. Everybody on the board ignored it. So right or wrong?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, listen, guys, I'm not the chair.

**Speaker 43:** This board either.

**Speaker 9:** Well, let me tell you where I stand. Yeah, let me tell you where I stand with this. To drag the town through this, this is open meeting violations are not good, okay? It can get you in a lot of trouble. You're already violating it, but not going public with it. And the fact of what Peter did is, I paid him.

**Speaker 44:** Okay.

**Speaker 9:** I'm not here to create issues. I simply said in that letter, treat me with a little bit of respect. And I'll tell you what, we always have respect in this town. I think the date was stopped. So, that's what I have to say about this. What do you want me to do? I'll leave it to you.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Well, I believe what the letter said is to address and make the board aware of the open meeting law. That doesn't address the matter. So, we sent a letter to the chairmen of the board to read this and make the...

**Speaker 45:** She never addressed.

**Speaker 9:** You never addressed the violation. Well, you didn't publicly say... Well, he's the one. I just... I wanted Peter Greenbush publicly... Publicly say, hey, I was out of line. I shouldn't have done it. That would have made it easy.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Well, I don't think it's going to happen because you resigned.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah. Why? I don't know. I don't know either. Well, you say we didn't address it. I'm not sure if the violation, the second violation is what you're talking about is or not. I'll look at it. That's okay. I'll look at it. I can look it up. I'm fine. No, you don't have to. I got it right here. You know, Dave, it wouldn't be the first time someone presented me with a law that I looked at and it was changed. So, I always want to... All right. Looking up today's laws.

**Speaker 9:** Whenever that happens with me after 50 years, you let me know. I will.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay. So, I'm just... I don't want to change anything. Right now, I'm just saying I'll look it up. Well, nevertheless, during that executive session, we did address it. We did come out with it in public and said we were going to let all board members be aware of it and we were going to tell the board... Send a letter to board members to be aware of these open meeting laws. I saw... You know, kind of pay attention because we're all volunteers pretty much. Yeah. We're going to do that. 25 hours a year. That's all right. But you're getting more depressed. Hey, notice the more time in the year than me. So, when you guys are volunteers, I understand. You know, we make mistakes. I get it. You know, so... And I'm not trying to...

**Speaker 47:** Nope.

**Speaker 9:** I understand. I think I've been really...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** What I could have done is not said anything. You know, Dave, I'm being really nice too. Every time I talk, you keep talking. So, I'm being very nice. Give me a break. Right, man? I'm just saying.

**Speaker 47:** I'll look for...

**Speaker 9:** I won't move my hat.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Go ahead. No, no. I'm just saying. I'm listening to you. You know, and when I... I'm listening to you. Well, you are now. But you weren't. Okay? So, I mean... Sorry.

Okay.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I apologize. You know. You've done... You've run a meeting before. You know. It's tough to keep your head going when someone keeps going. Yeah. I understand. So, again, I have all the respect and award for all you board members. Every single one of you. I told you guys this a million times. And I thought we did address it if we did make a violation when it comes to this board, because it's not really a second violation. Okay. It's the first violation of this board. It's the first violation of this board. Right? No. It's the second one. And this board, if we did make a violation in the executive... By going to an executive session... I said... I apologize for that. Okay. And we will try not to do that again. So, there's your public apology from this board. Thank you.

**Speaker 9:** I just said that by what you did created another violation. No. Not that you did. Okay. You didn't tell me to get out of the meeting. No. All right.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** If they ever had done... You know. The worst guys, as a matter of fact, we can't. Yeah. You know, the real thing I've already... Let me just keep my head still. I'm a big believer in the Fifth Amendment. Well, thank you. Being... Everybody being able to do that. So... If you want to... You know, we let people go more than five minutes every single Thursday that we have these meetings. And I... You can look up the statute.

**Speaker 9:** I know that I have it here. And it's just a call from the LCD Trust. So, my point is, I'm not interested in vagueness.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You can give me the statute, the law that you're talking about, and I'll write it down there. And I'll look it up. What was that? Second time of five years. That'll give me a start. Yeah.

**Speaker 43:** I think I have it.

**Speaker 9:** But I already apologized for it. No, no. Thank you. I mean, to me, it can be rectified by reading what happened in the public and to come up with whatever retribution it is. Peter left and there's... Yeah. ...no retribution. Yes. Right? He's not...

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay.

So, do you have the letter made? You can read the letter tonight. I have a question. Yeah. Do you have it, Dave, or do I have to address you? Just go ahead.

**Speaker 29:** Yeah. Dave, can I ask you what the violation was?

**Speaker 9:** Peter not letting me speak?

**Speaker 29:** Right. That was the violation? Which I... I mean, I'll go on record. I wasn't able to speak at that time. But I don't think it was a violation. I think... Isn't it the Chair's prerogative to only have people speak? It is. That's my question. That's my only question. I'm not asking...

**Speaker 9:** And when I went to speak during the hearing of visitors, listen to the tape, what was said? Oh, I don't... Oh, you don't remember that part? I...

**Speaker 49:** Jim said, let's save it until after the thing.

**Speaker 9:** Which is fine. There was nothing wrong with that. Until that time. So, I didn't say anything. But then when I went to speak, it kicked me out. I get it. Some boards... Some boards...

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Dave, I looked into this. Some boards allow hearing of visitors at the beginning. Okay. So, I didn't say anything. But then when I went to speak, it kicked me out. I get it. Some boards... Some boards... Dave, I looked into this. Some boards allow hearing of visitors at the beginning. And no other comments through the whole meeting. Yep. Had no problem. But it depends on the board. But like Mike said... Had no problem. We just let people give us their opinion during the meeting and... Yeah. So, again, I don't want to go too deep into it. Wait, Diane.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Wait. But I really believe that if... Again, if they had hearing of visitors and they were asked to wait until afterwards, that's another whole story. If they... If they allow other people to talk and only they are not to talk, that's another story. That's what happened. So... So... So... So... So... So... So... So... So... So... So... So... Well... I mean, there's a lot to this and I think we can, you know... I dressed that up. But I would like to... As far as I'm concerned it's actually pretty simple. Dave said he's asking for us to address it. We're addressing it. I don't think we need to go too much more on this. I... Peter's now not on a board anymore so we can't really ask him to do anything. This board, at least I did, I don't know if the rest of the board agrees with me, but we did have a violation. We apologize... We try to do better at that. Because we do make mistakes. Yeah. If you would like that letter read and the rest of this board doesn't have a problem with that, I wouldn't have a problem with that either.

**Speaker 9:** I think for transparency and to stop what Dan said earlier, and I agree with him, the friction in this town, doing that goes a long way in medicine. It's just not going to sell, okay? Other people. I mean, I have been here a long time.

**Speaker 50:** Lisa, I mean, not to create more friction, but it is good that we record meetings because I also write my minutes that you mentioned. I did mention that if you read my minutes also, there was a hearing of visitors and neither Salvo wanted to raise their hand or to speak at all during the hearing of visitors. That's not true. I'm speaking to you.

And so then we moved on. It's not true.

**Speaker 50:** And then David wanted to question the speaker, but it is the prerogative of the chair to then let the audience or observers then ask questions of our speaker.

**Speaker 51:** Right.

**Speaker 50:** Like we did tonight with the nationals.

David chose not to, and the hearing of visitors was an open time to speak. And that's how we handled it.

**Speaker 9:** Well, I did get to talk to the individual from DCLC.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I would like to actually read the letter, push forward, and just move forward on this. As a town issue, move forward. It's got to stop. Well, that's what I was going to say, Dave. Because I hope that the new chairman of any board, when we just restructure them all, will take this matter and start watching it a little bit better and make sure there's no problem.

I have no problem.

**Speaker 11:** Now, Diane had a question. That's right. The only problem was the man was leaving, and that was the only time that you had available to ask the question. And he shut them down, and the man left. That's the way you shut them down, too. On call. He was there. He was there.

**Speaker 9:** Okay.

**Speaker 52:** Anybody going to support me on that?

**Speaker 9:** That was at the meeting. I want to go back to Sheila's letter.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** There you go. That type of attitude, that's why I made you get to that. The bottom line is Peter's gone, so we can't do much with him now. There's a new chairman.

**Speaker 9:** Hopefully this doesn't happen, and we move forward as a town and get things done.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Because I put the money in the bank, and I'm not going to do anything else.

I'm going to get the money. I'm going to get the money. I'm going to get the money. I'm going to get the money. I'm going to get the money.

**Speaker 9:** I'm going to get the money.

**Speaker 47:** I'm going to get the money.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'm going to get the money. So could we wait just a minute then until Lori gets the letter, and I won't ask any other questions on any other topic?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I'll wait until Lori gets the letter. I was looking up the file on the shoes roll.

**Speaker 9:** I'll send it. Just email it to me. You can email it to me personally. I'll get the money. I did come across something about the planning commission, and they did talk about open meeting violations. You meant, excuse me, a chairperson resigning due to open meeting violations. If the decision to reduce the board from nine to seven was discussed in private gatherings between any board members, this would be considered a violation, DSA 310-3, right? Any person who filed a written notice of violation from the select board, the board has a time frame to admit the violation and cure it, which might involve avoiding the vote that reduced the board. So, she's, I mean, that's her perception. It's up to you with what you want to do with it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Got it. That part of it, and again, that's Sheila's part.

**Speaker 9:** But for now, any ethical, any ethical situation. We can discuss our structure.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** We can discuss that.

**Speaker 9:** I don't want you to lose your stuff, that's true.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Oh, and it says one last thing, that the fact that the board size has changed multiple times in the last six years, and it has. It's changed the planning five times.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** You've brought people in, brought people out, tried to remove people.

**Speaker 9:** I mean, this may be the best board you ever had, Jim, but it's the most weird thing I've ever seen of trying to manipulate who's going to do what. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, the board inbound. That's all I have to say. It's named inbound.

I'd like to come to the second section as well. On what? On the one with Sheila. Okay.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** We can hear you're tired of it, if you have to leave after this.

Absolutely. Hear the relevance? So I'm going to read Dave's letter in open meeting.

**Speaker 9:** I believe that has to be .

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Dear,, Laurie I'm asking this letter to be given to you, Select Board and the chair of the planning committee, the chair and so forth, that you consider these vetting as not applicable for decent and easy 괜찮ing of land. We have a motion to hear the finance rollout. Peter Greenbush, I am including the posting of the meeting where public discussion is allowed, but was not given the opportunity, but resulted in being told by Mr. Greenbush, I would be ejected if I kept pursuing the right to speak so plainly written on the agenda. Open meeting violation during planning board meeting on Monday, February 16, 2026 between 6.15 and 6.30 by Chairman Peter Greenbush, Chair of the Planning Commission, not allowing public comment or asking questions regarding the visit and explanation of how to change the CBA to a DRB by a member of the BCRC. Diane Saldo and I were only members of the public present. The full board of the Planning Commission was present along with zoning officers. Deborah Burchard, I was told to give a call outside the meeting to the BCRC member and to put my questions and address them to Peter Greenbush. I only had one question. As a citizen, I wanted to ask what was the advantage from moving to another body than the present CBA to a DRB after the gentleman from BCRC was finished. As I have no opinion either. I wanted to understand why the Planning Commission was investigating this without letting the CBA be part of the process. I was told to shut up or I was going to be thrown out of the meeting. This was embarrassing to both my wife and I to be treated in this manner. I am asking the select board to conduct an investigation, listening to the recorded tape and all participants present. I would also ask the town clerk to read my complaint during the upcoming select board meeting on Thursday, February 19, and to enter the letter of consent. I am giving fair notice of the law for this to be reviewed. This continual harassment through false accusation on my character needs to be addressed. It is beyond the point of ridiculous that I continue to be attacked by Peter Greenbush and others through false accusations when the facts of what is going on has been recorded. Every man has his limits and unfortunately many of us do not have the age or vigor to fend off these vicious attacks. The double standards. I want to express my gratitude to the President to the board for this, for the process that is going on with several of these boards for the address. Thank you for your consideration, David Sala. Thank you. And then there's some law here. So we read the notice. We did address this in Executive Secretary Osborne's letter, designation letter during the open meeting.

**Speaker 9:** Never heard?

**Speaker 44:** Well, he just, he said he resigned.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Oh, okay. So he resigned. I thought you would ask to make the aware of the participants.

**Speaker 53:** Oh, he's going to respect me.

**Speaker 10:** I think that was our decision.

**Speaker 53:** decision but that's because you didn't for anything else just to be made aware

**Speaker 9:** didn't I say to Peter I asked for my apology I made it as simple as Peter I just don't want to go to meetings

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** only that I can participate and have this done respectfully and without the malice I continue to receive from any of the commission members this was Wednesday

**Speaker 45:** February 25th no I had to redo them because I put Peter down as the chairman

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** of the dollar so did we have a meeting on February 19th I think that was our

meeting I know but I don't think we had a quorum there we cancelled that meeting I just want to ask the select board how many of you listened to that planning commission recording because that would just simplify this

**Speaker 50:** yeah right and that's what I would like to discuss later

**Speaker 9:** good things in time so it's fresh

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** basically I just well I thought really I'm saying at this point Dave I think we did yes do you agree with that Peter's not a chair anymore we didn't tell the rest of the chair you read it out we're good you know we apologize we're good okay that's right thank you thank you

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** thank you okay we've now got a push-through of five different Brighton basins in your letter requested action for four items for which we may or may not grant all these requests because we're a board and we have to go along with board

**Speaker 36:** decision and what the law is so we'll address them and we'll figure out what

**Speaker 32:** we're doing yes back years ago when David and I Kurt Danny and Iím a pickup visual actor so we got an appearance on Wednesday frame and that's the date of our former full board meeting and okay I goin anything else what would it do? yes there are a lot of um there is a lot of way to go but I think that's where things could both work because I can read as I oh and they are speaking more if there's anything I'm doing on the chopping knife or something I won't uh if anybody cares from that and I can rebuild the book up my laptop let's just get started okay I'll see myself in person I can't remember the guy over on the lane by Barlow.

**Speaker 9:** Steve Bechtel.

**Speaker 32:** Steve Bechtel. Okay. And we were all on the board for planning. We were going through things and we found where AC, BCA, CO, everyone, all those people now. They were the ones that were coming down and saying that we had, you know, one, two, and three that we could go through and put out for the rules and regulations and stuff. And we went through them and we found that that's where they were saying that they had the goal to do the government in the town. They didn't give the other two papers that said that it'd be like if you wanted to build something, you print it out. You hand it in. Yep. Go through the laws in the town of Stamford, go in the laws that are written for the state. That's how we handled it. Because we felt that it was more, the person putting that in was more responsible and, and knew what they wanted and we would understand it 100% better. But he was setting the town up for failure.

**Speaker 9:** Okay. Basically they were saying no building in the floodplain for any reason or no reason. There was three options. The third option is the town has discretion for their own means and can go in front of the ZVA. So that's when we took that. To build in the floodplain by altering the floodplain. So then I wanted to say. Which is stated in the agreement, by the way. When we were in the meeting, when we were just the first ones out there in that, we said, you know, we're going to build in the floodplain by altering the floodplain. So then I wanted to say. Which is stated in the agreement, by the way. When we were in the meeting. When we were just the first ones out there in that.

**Speaker 32:** From that day on, I have never, I don't feel like I was part of the committee at all, and I know Dave didn't feel it either. Well, I started that. Because we were sitting right there and we had a certain person and his wife stood up, they were going to hammer. They were really upset. They were going to push us to the side. That's what they said. upset with some of the stuff that and that we had other ones we ended up with almost 14 people for that planning that planning board and it was a whole bunch of stuff that went through they changed and did this did that and you know what from that day on dave and i have never had any say we were asked like the last meeting um peter asked me well shill what do you feel about having how far the land the driveway and the house and garage will be from the main road i felt that we had to wait and see what the person put down they knew that we had from this time to this inches okay they put it in then when they put it give it to deb to have her decide on it or whatever she could look at it and something that is a little bit a lot different than what we expected that's when i would expect it to come up and go to like the cva okay we never get that we don't get

**Speaker 36:** any of that i don't get asked anything other than some things little to the zip after it's denied by deb it doesn't go to the cpa it's supposed to as far as i always understood i don't think that's

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** the real issue i mean that still happens if there's a problem i don't right there is that you

**Speaker 32:** can appeal it

**Speaker 9:** sounds like so many things have gone down in this town about property permits stay coming down people being accused of expanding their rights when they didn't and then the result is this you knock houses down with asbestos nobody cared yeah no permits you black the church app that was stuck nobody cared well you know what we do is we really need to invest to this town's social care because this has been going on for so many years for us the consular physicians the private safety but we don't want to people that have had control over their own lives just because of what they call the rules and regulations that's to protect your children my children his children and because it's a buddy thing you bring alice check on you bring this one on and then you know you know put up the board and push everybody off they're trying to do the right thing i've never refused the thing in this town i've always figured out ways to work that i'm not going to stand for people doing this i have to know thank you very much we're good we're good

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** So, we're going to discuss this, we'll let you know what's going on. That's not a comment, okay.

Yeah, these four. Any other visitors?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yes. Come on.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** And then two records and orders of March 5th, and I thought we had another one to do too. Just March 5th?

Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** Motion.

**Speaker 54:** No.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I have to amend something. I have to amend something. When we came out of the executive session last meeting, because we discussed the set the salary training by the listers, we also agreed to appoint Deb Burchard to the zoning administrative position for one year, and it should be corrected three years, and that was, I just said one year, and it should be three years, because that's the term.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Motion to be amended. Second.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Thank you.

**Speaker 55:** Do you plan...

Isn't that right next to your house? Yeah, you noticed that. So, Paul, he here has been in contact with the state.

**Speaker 55:** I've been in contact with the state. He has some, you know, I guess paper trail on it. But they've called me and talked to Russell, and Paul has talked to me. And they've used the green light to get our tractor out. I'm going to have to have like a log truck home or something to lift the roof. Because it's on top of the tractor at this point. Do you want me to do that? Do you want to try to hire somebody to... So the state won't do it for you? No, they're not doing it. Okay. The instructions I... Do whatever I need to do to get it out, but don't leave a mess after.

But they won't do it? They're not going to. So maybe if you can lift it up, get your tractor out quick, and drop it down.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Like where it would go if your tractor was down.

**Speaker 2:** Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Are you paying for it? No. Okay, so it's kind of a, you help me, I'll help you pay for it.

**Speaker 56:** We have a lease, the fire department has a lease for one dollar a year.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Oh, okay. So it's one of those things, thank you, thank you, let's not... Okay. Is there no damage to the tractor?

**Speaker 55:** I think it's minimal at this point. But there's probably some damage. I have other items in there, cones, barricades, that type of stuff.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Are you asking us if it's okay if you get someone to do this? Yeah.

**Speaker 55:** Make a motion. Does he have insurance? Well, that's the other thing with this conflict. I mean, my family has the log trucks. So I could try to get somebody else with a log truck. They're not going to charge you? I have no idea. I'm sure they're going to charge us. Yeah. I'm not expecting it to take more than a couple hours. I mean, I don't know how much effort you want into going into... I just don't want... Me personally hiring them might be a conflict, though.

**Speaker 57:** I have no problem. I think go ahead.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I know who you're talking about and everything. They're townspeople.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Go ahead.

**Speaker 58:** John, anybody have a question or concern with that?

**Speaker 1:** I think the priority is to get the tractor out of there. So whatever you got to do to get it out without causing any more damage, it's fine.

**Speaker 55:** It may not even charge the town. They've done things before and not charged the town.

I don't know. Yeah, tell them.

**Speaker 55:** Tell them I'll buy one extra load this year. How's that? I don't think it's going to take, you know...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You know, these are the type of things where... I know there's rules. These are the type of things where you... This is where we're talking. Go back to what Dan was saying. Let's bring this town back together. That's part of the definition of what a community is.

**Speaker 59:** Get it started.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah, exactly. Then we'll worry about that. I haven't asked them yet.

**Speaker 60:** Tell them if they would do it.

**Speaker 55:** Thank you very much. We appreciate it. I'm concerned with, you know, the log trucks on the road. I have been in constant conversation with the truck drivers and the loggers about what's been going on up there. A truck. A log truck came down today. Yeah. I mean, it's froze at this point. It's, you know, better. They did, I would say, do some damage. They brought their equipment out. They planted on their part. Nothing extreme. Nothing more than... I mean, I don't know how picky you want to get. I mean, if somebody needs, you know, to get oil or propane and they destroy our road, are we going to go after the oil company or propane?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** One of the questions I was going to ask, and I don't know if it's to you or to the board. We ask people that haul in this town for permits. We ask people that plow on the back roads for insurances. And I was under the impression that when National Forest hires these people, they're in charge. But now that I heard what they told us tonight is, well, sorry about, you know, you have to go after the logger or trucker or something. You know, there are loggers that don't do their own trucking. And then how do we know who's actually doing the work? And should we require National Forest next time they do something to give us a list and the insurances back to us? Mm-hmm. To say, okay, we know you're not responsible, but we don't want to spend all this time figuring out who the heck they are. I mean, Deb was saying with an excavator, pretty sure it might be the loggers, but it could have been someone else in town that has an excavator that's doing a job, you know? No, it was, it was. It has their name on it. Yeah. You know, that's what I'm saying though. I have an excavator.

It doesn't have my company name on it. I mean, they are doing a lot of this in the middle of the day. Yeah. They're doing a lot of this in the middle of the night or early in the morning. I know.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, you know, that's what I'm saying. I just would like to have the town have that, that list in front of us and say, okay, you really did do a lot of damage. I think. It might not be, but what do you think?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I think before they start next fall, I agree with Mike that we should get a list. They should all have their plowing agreement and their certificate of insurance for, just like the other companies.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** We make the camp owners get a plowing agreement. We don't make these guys.

**Speaker 55:** Well, they, I mean, so they're not plowing on our town road. The, the hunter people over on Klondike were. Well, they did Risky Ranch Road. Right. We don't have anything. Those aren't the people that were, are creating the problem.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** But they still should have a plowing agreement.

**Speaker 55:** They did. They do. From us?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Risky Ranch.

Yeah. Who were they? That's Hunter.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Hunter Excavation. Oh, okay. Okay. Then Klondike doesn't have it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's, that's who's over there. They're over on. On Klondike, Risky Ranch. They're over on Klondike, Risky Ranch. Okay. The other people are coming out of Stamford Pond Road. Correct. Whatever it is. Okay. So we. Yeah.

**Speaker 61:** We need a plowing agreement.

**Speaker 29:** Oh, no.

**Speaker 62:** No, no.

**Speaker 29:** We don't. Okay. So we're good. All right. So they don't need a plowing agreement for 264? It's a class. Because it's not ours. It's a trail. It's a trail.

It's a trail. I mean, it is Class 4. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Maybe a little bit. Well, it, it's a superhighway now. It's beautiful. That's good. I would pay for it. Okay. Yeah. My other question was on the excavators that were coming down. I mean, they definitely. This is a, a larger scale operation than we typically see when somebody walks in town and they see a, a truck, a dam or something. But some of this is. Yeah. This is a lot. You know, they were pulling up traffic. It wasn't.

**Speaker 55:** It was definitely less than ideal for us, even at times, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, be able to get our equipment in and out of the garage. Yeah. It was. It, it's a. If they do the Broadbrook one, too, that's going to be. Are they going to come down county or are they going to go down Klondike or Riskey Ranch there? Well, I think that we should get a vote on National Forest, too. Because they are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, if we, if we can get these whatever ones to hire these people at least to the point where we can get information of then we can contact these, these bloggers. Who are your contact in, mortgageこちら. Yeah. Next time, you know, next season they come in, ask that, you know, when she's here again, we'll ask her or reach out or before then.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** And they'll reach out to you before?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah.

I mean, I have, I've chased them down a few times. Yeah. Oh, thank you.

**Speaker 55:** I have a lot more contacts on my phone line then did before the start Yeah. Was my truckers. And I've seen them at this point. So, no searching. seen him try to get up here. When the road loader froze, I saw the trucks coming past my house at 7 o'clock one night, and I grabbed my truck and came down here and confronted them about it, and turned them around, and I'm sure they weren't happy about it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** And I don't like that. I don't know about that statement. I mean, that's a truck driver just doing a logging truck. We don't have to abide by the posted signs. Okay, we'll make it so you only got this much room to drive through. How's that?

**Speaker 55:** Unfortunately, too, from some of the information they relayed to me, I don't know how true it was because I wasn't there, but some residents have, you know, kind of been a little nasty with them, too, so their patients probably, you know, there's some issues going on. Sure. They're trying to get their job done. People are trying to get home. Sure, everybody's on a...

**Speaker 29:** He was actually quite polite last night when I talked to him. There were two tandem trailers that came down, and they were stopped. On that curve, which is so dangerous, right there in front of the town garage, so they were backed up around that corner, and it's tough enough to get around, and I just said, when are you guys going to be done? The roads posted, and he literally said, they don't have to abide by it. Okay.

**Speaker 55:** Well, I mean, unfortunately, I mean, in a way, if somebody's got to get a load of firewood, it's no different than something you get in a load of oil. Oh, I get it. I mean, so if somebody, I mean, or the electric company, the utility in a way, I mean, I don't know how... Some heavy trucks that go up there for life. Yeah, and if somebody got a box truck delivery today, that's probably almost worse than a log truck, the bank functions in it, because you got it on one set of axles, you know? The UPS and FedEx delivery, I mean, the UPS guy destroyed Klondike Road a week ago. He does. I mean, I just... Personally, the log truck guys, and I know my family in that business, but they're more aware, and they want to try to work with you. Where did the UPS get stuck at Klondike? I think by Carl's there. Oh. I mean, the UPS guy himself told me, so I know it actually happened, but... I mean, I had somebody scream at me today because they said their delivery didn't get delivered because the UPS guy got stuck, and... But I don't know how he got stuck. I didn't know you were a former UPS. Yeah, I don't know how he got stuck on the road they said he got stuck on because there wasn't even a roughing road, so... Yeah. But I can see just by the attitude, you know, of people... Tension? Some tension. You think? Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** What else do you have, Dave?

**Speaker 55:** I'm trying to...

**Speaker 63:** You're good on roads?

**Speaker 55:** Yeah, I mean, we ordered our new truck. Good. So now I realize that we're going to... You already worked on them. We filled some of the potholes with what we could fill them with.

Yeah.

**Speaker 55:** And right now we can't...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Are we Frosties or Frosties?

**Speaker 55:** Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yeah. I mean...

**Speaker 55:** They're coming out of our road. Slow down. Yeah. Some of the hills are a little rough with the, you know, the way the torque of the wheels and the grade, you know, some of the material moves and makes them mobile, but you've got to go slow at that time. There's not much I can do about that if I... There's no mud, so if you put stone, you've got a bunch of loose stone. If you put a bunch of gravel, you're going to make mud. You're going to make slime, you're going to try to get up the hill. How many people do you think actually utilize their four-wheel drive? Yeah. How many people do you think actually utilize their four-wheel drive? Yeah. Instead of just running up, going up the hill, you know? Yeah. I don't know. It's just a matter of going slow and having some patience and realizing that I can't just make... Wave my magic wand and make it okay. Okay. You good?

**Speaker 1:** Yeah. Recycling. Anything on recycling? Good. Recycling. Recycling. Recycling. Recycling.

**Speaker 55:** Recycling. Recycling. Recycling. Recycling. Recycling.

Recycling. Recycling. Recycling. Recycling. Recycling. Recycling. Recycling. Recycling. Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I see Steve Senekel filled in a little bit, so. Discussion? Lister update. Deb did get back to me about the Lister training hours. We asked her to do that meeting. Lister... No, it'll take about 53 hours to become... I thought, I was going to say, will you get a master's degree in time? Yeah. 53 hours? But that will be for one year. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

**Speaker 2:** Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah. Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** So, you know, you get that... For a year. For a year. Yeah. For a year. Yeah. Right. I mean, that's... That's so true. That, I mean, that, you get your basic. You get your Lister one. Yeah. And the question she had for me and I could not answer it is, did we, we set the salary for Lister training or did we say, yes, you can participate in this because now it's going to be about $1000? So, $3000. So, $3060.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Exactly. Are we just waiting for the...

**Speaker 10:** Those are the orders that have been back.

Wait.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's kind of what I thought, too, but I couldn't remember and I don't think we did. Do you anticipate the second year doing less training and the third year doing less training and so on?

**Speaker 61:** Well, Nancy, when do we get into this?

**Speaker 29:** What do you think? I don't know. I have no job. That's the issue. And we kind of came to that conclusion today. I have one person on a board of three. I've exhausted every conversation.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Right. The people that talked at the town meeting are not going to.

**Speaker 41:** I think last night they did the meeting law, the TLC, and I believe that was one of the questions that was asked. It is if I'm a single lister when there's supposed to be three. And I think the answer was that they don't exist. They don't exist. So.

**Speaker 29:** So, unfortunately, we do have a board. We have an elected board, but there are two vacancies. So I'm ineffective. There's nothing for me to do. I can't because you can never get a forum with one person.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So is it in the best interest for us to pay her to train?

Well, that's.

**Speaker 29:** So when there is a board or what if there never becomes a board?

That's up to you guys. That's why we pay you guys. I mean.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah. That's what I mean. I mean, as a business owner, I have no problem sending someone to training. Hey, I have. There's always a risk. You'll quit. You know, there's always a risk that they don't come back. You know, so I look at it like, OK, say we get someone. You're a three year member and someone comes up three years from now. Now you have two. Can you do it with two? I have two. And now you got to go in because we waited. You know. So that doesn't answer my question about a thousand dollars and a thousand dollars again and a thousand dollars again. Because again, though, I like training people. But if it was twenty thousand dollars to train someone, then I might think twice about it versus, you know. You get your level status once.

**Speaker 29:** OK. So we really feel that it's going out there after all these.

**Speaker 64:** I had a tough time with this.

**Speaker 10:** This Lister thing has beat me to death. It's almost as bad as a sign. I mean, we went from collected to appointed.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And I feel disappointed. Oh, yeah. Sorry. You know.

That thing out there. Yeah, I'm so disappointed. Because I was there.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** We had a good time.

**Speaker 1:** We made sense of them. Next you have to sho people. Maybeñases on two people. Did at the same time in a train. Too waste of money. And send her in hopes of somebody else doesn't seem like anybody else is coming forward.

**Speaker 65:** Is this in person or online online softness?

**Speaker 29:** And, I've already started the training and I'm not expecting anything. But, I have started it just for me. OK. just because some of it's already, I had, I didn't know what your decision would be. So I've invested, I don't know. Maybe a second person will blow up on the time that they spend catching up with the training.

**Speaker 1:** Who's the second person?

**Speaker 19:** We've been talking about this for years. So at the end of two, at the end of a full year, you might have, or a year and a half, you may have two trained people.

**Speaker 1:** I don't know, I don't know. We're still waiting for somebody else to step forward. We had someone step forward at the town meeting, but they since have changed their mind. The problem, it has been a long time. Yeah, which that, yeah, changed their mind.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Was it May? No, but I mean, even back when Deb Darling was doing it, she left, that's the last time we had anybody that was actually elected. Then there was no one appointed, because there was no interest.

**Speaker 19:** You had other people at town meeting be real noisy and then disappear. I don't know, maybe.

**Speaker 10:** I think there was. I think there's a total disconnect on how much money this could actually save the town.

Well, and another thing is, we've never really advertised it as it's gonna pay $20 an hour. That might pay $20 an hour. And it had, I mean, it's so seasonal, too. Yeah.

**Speaker 29:** It's not something that somebody can rely on. It's like the zoning administrator position.

**Speaker 1:** My other problem is, what happens so we spend the money to train Deb, what happens? There's a time in her life where she decides she doesn't want to do it anymore.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, that's a risk you take, yeah. That's like my business.

They can quit any time they want. Can't keep them, you know? We trained constables a year and had them leave. I mean, you can have a contract with someone.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** They still leave. It doesn't matter, you know? It costs you more to fight it. It's worth it. What do you want? You want that guy to stay after you follow him?

**Speaker 19:** I think you've got to make the effort to let her get started, personal opinion.

You're serious? I mean, it's. I mean, it's. I mean, it's. I mean, it's. I mean, it's. I mean, it's. I mean, it's. I mean, it's. I mean, it's. I mean, possibly it's.

**Speaker 29:** Like when we were talking today. It would get. It would bring me up to such a good familiarity with the position in general, if she ever needed assistance. I'd be kind of boots on the ground here where she's two and a half hours away.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Well, that's the other thing. I can scan records to her. I don't know why I didn't think of it before because it was never done that way. But I. She could work out of her home, scan the records, the only thing she needs is a deed because everything else is online with the state.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** The position you have is a session club, right? Yes. Now that is appointed? You guys appointed me. That's an appointed job, okay. You can fire me.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Can I recuse? Well, hold on now.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Does anybody want to do that job? Why can't she be a Lister?

She doesn't want to. Right. She's smarter than I am.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, it's a good job to take for just training and then quit. I might do it. I flunk the training, right? I don't think it does. I'll drink a beer while I'm watching it.

**Speaker 19:** And how does the law read when it comes to that Lister's position if you're two Listers? If you're two Listers.

**Speaker 37:** If you have two elected Listers, like you and dad, then she could effectively do her job, right? Right. Without you being trained? How does that work? I mean, I don't know what the law reads on that.

**Speaker 29:** When we were talking about that today, if you ever had to go in front of, if you were ever sued, if the town was sued for a decision that was made that was incorrect, do you have so much more. Tea. Tea. If you're certified Lister. If you have a certified Lister. You're training in there. You're not just somebody that walked in and said, I'll be a Lister. I get that.

**Speaker 19:** Well my question is that you maintain the Lister, doing the Lister stuff, she does her Lister clerk stuff, and does some training once in a while.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Maybe. You are doing the training anyway? I did the training. But I don't want to.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Why are you doing the Lister training?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Because I want to know how to put these homesteads in and stuff. I don't know how to do that.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay, but it is part of that training.

**Speaker 37:** What I'm saying is, would that be adequate to justify her decision?

**Speaker 66:** I mean, for her to be able to.

**Speaker 41:** You know, because we need three. What he's basically saying is if she becomes the second,

**Speaker 67:** that doesn't actually do, but Deb can now do something.

**Speaker 29:** She would still have to go up in front of people to justify any decisions. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I think that would be that.

Can we post the second position, like in the Berkshire Eagle, at $20 an hour?

**Speaker 1:** It's got to be a town position.

It has to be a town position.

**Speaker 29:** Because it's election, right?

Right.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** She told us today.

**Speaker 1:** So can we post it with a $20? An hour starting salary, with training. Well, that might make people step to their plate a little bit more.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Right now, this is the first time we've ever mentioned money.

**Speaker 1:** $20 to start, and lunch training.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah, this is the first time we've ever set a fee.

**Speaker 29:** She did say that they have a template for advertising.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** And we do know that there's at least 50 hours of training for this position in one year, correct? So we have paid training.

Yeah.

**Speaker 29:** Year. So we've got to do it now, because it's going to drop off. It's going to stop in August.

Yeah. Right. So that's what I'm saying.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** If we advertise this, someone came in next week or next meeting, we hired them, or we

can appoint an elected position, right? Yes. Because the election will wait until the final election.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** It would only be until the final election, though. But in the time, but we could say, we know there's at least 50 hours of training that we need to pay for. Not counting other. There are other times that you need to do the job, you know. Because someone's going to say, well, how many hours are we going to get? You're going to pay me 20 hours, you know, $20 an hour, and I'm going to get one hour. Might as well be coming to Slatton. No, she's three years. But we can appoint someone until, it would just be until the next. Oh, that's, you can't appoint, give somebody the. The three years? Three years. No. It's just like if we didn't have anybody running. Doug? Doug, that's how he was up there. If I quit right now, I'm going to appoint someone for two years, but not my first.

**Speaker 1:** Right, right. So even if somebody comes forward and lost position, they have to be elected? We could appoint them until next year. It's already been elected. So we could appoint somebody, train somebody, and then. They'll run for election, and I don't see anybody running against them. So yeah.

If we have that problem, we'll worry about that. Put it out there. We're looking for a town resident. Well, there's another.

**Speaker 1:** There's Hank.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You're right, though, Kurt. I mean, people don't understand that this, although it looks like, oh, jeez, we have to pay $1,000 for training. In New York, it's $1,000 in a week.

**Speaker 1:** Every time you get here. You know? Yeah. You know? It's probably like $1,000 just for them to come here. It's $100 an hour. So they come here for another day. Yeah. He was here for six hours today.

So there you go. So there you go. You know? You pay for travel. Yep. And it's a lot of, well, you have people at the bank at the 15 that are out. And they hand out their stuff. And stuff.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** And stuff. And stuff. Yeah.

Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** You probably could have. What was that? That was like $1,000.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yes. That's what you need to do. At least save the travel time.

**Speaker 1:** What number it charges? $100,000. Well, less than $100,000.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** For re-appraisal?

**Speaker 58:** Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** For all that appraisal. Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** For the re-appraisal itself, like $85,000, $89,000? Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah. I think it was quartered at $100,000. But they charge you for the core. If you have a payment. The extra. We had that core. The work thing we had to do. Yeah. They charge you for that. They charge you for your travel time.

**Speaker 68:** And then.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Any time they do work that's not even here, they charge you.

**Speaker 1:** That's like every four years or something, the state's mandating that. I heard. Again, like in three years? More often.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Four to six years, depending what state.

**Speaker 1:** You think that's going to go down? Complaining about your taxes going up. Somebody's jumping in. Somebody's going. Well, they were just talking about re-evaluating already.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yeah.

**Speaker 38:** Well, I just asked.

**Speaker 37:** Just so they can get more money.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Who was saying that? The school or state?

**Speaker 2:** No.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** The state. Digger? State? Yeah.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Cooper. Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** When Cooper was here. You got to sell your houses to your kids for less money in our evaluation.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Or make sure everybody files their homestead because that. Even if you don't have to pay taxes, you need to file your homestead. Right.

Does it sound better in the evaluation? The evaluation goes down. And the rate just goes up. It's all about your money. The money. I don't think it's a discount. It's a homestead.

**Speaker 37:** We do it every year. But I don't see a very significant difference.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Well, it's counted in other ways, too. The states. That when you file your taxes, somebody else says, oh, he's a resident of Stamford. And they use it for whatever else they use it for. Yeah.

**Speaker 2:** But I paid. Somebody was talking about that.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** A higher rate for my camp than I do my house by a lot. Yeah. I mean, I'm paying for that stupid camp up there at $3,500 a year for a camp going around nothing. It's just a box. Well, there's tons of camps around here.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Hopefully, we can find them.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's true.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Hopefully, we can find them.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** And then you have the next thing is, oh, well, it's on wheels. You got them down the hill.

**Speaker 56:** Onward.

**Speaker 19:** Next.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay. So what do we decide there? What are we doing?

I think we should. Yeah. Post. One more time. Post. If nobody comes, one more time. All right. So in the meantime, do we pay Deb for training? I think we have to because as the courses go on and on, she's going to lose it. So it's just a waste of money. It's a gamble. It's like the gamble that. I'm not going anywhere. No, no, no. It's a gamble that I know. You might get hit by a logging truck coming down the hill. I'm sorry. I'm going to walk. Don't even say that. Oh, God.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'm sorry.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I'm sorry.

**Speaker 63:** I'm sorry.

**Speaker 55:** I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I mean, it's a deal. It's not aizottah. I don't know. I have to answer your question. My question is, if you could pay Deb to train you in the summer, could you sign up for the tuition? Yeah, sure. You know, I don't know. The first thing I think about is I guess one of the things is'll be, I don't know, it's not fair.

I mean, if you could pay Deb, I'd love that. I don't know. I can do that. I mean, I don't think that's fair.

**Speaker 29:** That's very good. 26 the 27th is the grand list seminar all day i don't know okay

**Speaker 1:** i'll post on the website oh singing in the paper yeah oh the berkshire eagles are like our paper right yeah but it's got to be a stamford president as you said yeah just in case we're

**Speaker 10:** looking for two 20 bucks positions start page stamford town hiring yeah must be a town resident

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** but you know we're doing a lot of work for the state right now too

yeah uh she wasn't here for this part but for the homesteads they're coming down like i said before

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** we're coming they're coming you filed your homestead with the state i know you filed what comes down here yes you're a resident you got to check this check this then you go and you'll upload it to their vipi and say yes yes yes yes and then you if the state sets a grand list on that and it has to match ours and so it looks like we're doing the state's work yeah we are if you build the state oh but they did say we get a dollar per parcel i think somebody did write that somebody wrote it no it was a dollar per parcel we'll post that um have the applications in by two weeks is that enough time yeah we better because training will all be done office maintenance what's the cause of it

**Speaker 69:** it's not boring it's to fill the surface to protect getting more water coming up and re-carpet it be tiled instead of carpeted wait and see if it leaks i don't know but i wanted to bring more to you guys to think about it at some point we'll have to deal with it was it was there mold or

**Speaker 13:** anything well when you pulled the carpet off it really stuck it wasn't it wasn't mold but it was

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** mildew concrete flooring yeah so it's porous though kind of you know i'm having the same problem i shop with a lot worse problems we do go forward with a carpet tile because i think if we do it if we don't do it those risk things the guy says well i think it's this i'm not going to fix it and it gets worse or you can get that fixed and then it's still not that that's where we're at that carpet fix it and the water comes back then we then we spent two thousand dollars on something

**Speaker 1:** that didn't work okay i feel like you almost need like a section in there where you could put a pump if you have to when the water gets to a certain point because otherwise i mean where's the water you can you could just seal it but the water is going to go

**Speaker 37:** somewhere else on water it's seeping up through i look at it too it's seeping up through these so it's only going to crack why so much it's just that'd be a question you see the big huge piles

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** of snow and stuff yeah we have we had a puddle there that we didn't have before that puddle

**Speaker 60:** is kind of new yeah it is smaller today so there was a frosty there that was preventing it from

**Speaker 55:** draining but i think i brought this up before that it wasn't freezing when it was you know 10 below zero groundwater from something yeah there's something there was something going on

**Speaker 60:** like there's a vein of water yeah because the school says that it's not a broken part

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** well they can be broken from the well the river they tested over there they're telling us that there's no place because they just passed the well yeah no they didn't i thought they did did they do a scope they need to i don't know they need to set the scope

**Speaker 57:** on there see i thought they just did a pressure test i think that's what they did

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** which i don't know where they would have a base pressure but that's i mean they need to scope it

**Speaker 37:** i think yeah they need to see it when they when the guy was here from the school we looked up on the up on the hill as you come down the driveway and turns right there about level between the sign and the black hole straight out on that entrance there's a crack in the in the asphalt when when it did freeze and it was cold it looked like it opened up even more and the water was literally i thought it was finding that it was not finding it no finding out of it yeah oh coming out

**Speaker 10:** of it coming out of it and going right down to that puddle that ends up there now you got to

**Speaker 39:** crack down there supply from the well from the school that's made up so that's it wasn't it wasn't

**Speaker 37:** coming from the well it was actually above the well that cracks them where's the wall over this

**Speaker 70:** side or this side right now

okay so if it's is it cast is it is it clay i'm sure it's not pvc pipe it's concrete or it's a

**Speaker 71:** pavement with a crack the supply line from the well it's probably cast iron so that's down below the crack which could be 50 70 70 year old cast iron

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** uh dave what if we found a way to drain that puddle or put a put a deeper swale there

**Speaker 63:** would it drain and well we're going to need that frosting again

**Speaker 55:** that was all done correctly to start with yeah that's true there i mean there's a frosty there

**Speaker 1:** if it's leaking a lot this place has been here forever though too who's to say it's got proper

**Speaker 54:** drainage around the building it's well like you said it's all gravel i think things have changed

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** the last year because remember everybody on mill road not phil jeffson wrote a lot of people they lost their water uh then the church got a lot of water in the basement why we don't know

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** i mean i don't know where to here we go again with the responsibility okay is the town responsible for the well and so on we're going to go into that whose budget's going to come out of if you got to do a scope and see if it's broke that's the cheapest thing to do to see if it's broken i mean i i would like to just you know talk to the school and say can you do that

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** one of you asked the school board what was done because we just got it from my

**Speaker 55:** sister thanks to me i don't know there's a thing there's a vein of water it's running where it's coming from i can't say for sure water's where water freezes freezes like there's no other running water and the ground is froze right so it's coming up it's finding that crack right but then when the ground thawed now there's no water there because the water is draining right through right so that's why yeah i agree with you laurie never saw anybody

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** on here it's logical that it's the well that's what i'm gonna i ask you is the source make it makes more sense that it's a well than it is the river to me that it does the water table of the river is not no no of course here i would say then let's have them check it out yeah see if they'll get that done and then because again if we put put money into something and it doesn't work

**Speaker 55:** we can put it back on there it goes there in the past yeah and you know we assault it the wind dries it or whatever the sun dries it and it's over but it never dry out winter i come i come every morning and shovel the water out so the kids don't yeah and we've never had lord's never had this issue

when i'm sure nancy hasn't all right and that carpet's been down 30 years just almost 30 years

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** we just asked the school it's tough enough if they scope it or if they slope it we're going to need to do something to make it better Or find out what they did.

**Speaker 10:** Do you want me to ask them?

Do you want me to go to a meeting?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Do you want me to just go talk to the principal? Talk to the principal and get something in writing

or see what they did for a test. And then we'll go from there. Yes.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** So Laurie, in the meantime, are you comfortable having that carpet under that plastic or do you want to cut it out and put something there?

The carpet is so thin I don't think that plastic is going to dip down either. No, no. If it was that plastic, that's all right. So I think we're good. Alright.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** And just watch it. Alright. Sign revised MERC grant agreement.

So we had asked to do the highway

**Speaker 69:** garage doors, the big doors and then the side entry man door. And there was extra money so they decided to upgrade the electrical so Dave could use a generator and stuff. And that was kind of thrown in at the end. And when it came time to ask for payment, they realized the grant agreement didn't have the electrical upgrade so they had to do a new grant agreement to include that. And we've already gotten paid for it

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** so it's just a formality. So we got paid for both the door and the electrical? Yes. Alright. So we're going to go back

**Speaker 72:** to Lori, too.

**Speaker 69:** Any sign uniform, municipal excess weight permit, Arcade Miles? Arcade Miles.

And then this week we also got one from Amerigas. So there's two. These are the overweight permits? Yes.

**Speaker 55:** I guess I did have extra correspondence.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** So the log truck should be signing these, too. How many now? Old business, 911 numbering update. Any update from? Okay. Last I knew they were working on it.

New business, we've got the letter. We've read that already. Anybody else?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I have a question. Lisa just lost that. Maybe Jim? During the plan board, they're talking about the town plan. That's what you're getting? I just have one question. Are you talking about the town village at all? Well, that's part of the concept. Is there a possibility that that town village can be expanded?

**Speaker 37:** That's what I was hoping, but it was already decided. But then I've been doing some research on it and it's not decided yet.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, I always thought when they, remember when they first did it, they said, well, we can start small, but then we can add things around it.

**Speaker 10:** There's also, I think it's like a quarter acre circumference around that village that you can designate as a planned development area.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, I mean, it's no secret I bought a building down the road and then you've got John's next door to me and Billmont's store. Actually, Pam has permits for a business.

**Speaker 10:** I always do that as a commercial district

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** if there's such a thing in Stamford. Well, if I did start a store there that I wanted to get, yeah, it's a personal thing too, but I was looking and saying that's a lot of property that could expand and help the town. And that's where...

**Speaker 37:** You know, it's not just me. That's my issue too. If there's something I didn't really understand that I wanted to once we really dove into it, we had to, I guess, is Lisa over there? So, we had to tell the state or Bennington, we're going to have a village center. We decided we were going to have a village center. Then they came with a map and said, show us where it is. And it was Lisa and Pete worked on something about, okay, here it is. And I said, well, why wouldn't you expand it to the mass border and to the bridge? That's where I see it.

**Speaker 55:** Quarter mile up. There's their... Who did?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Didn't they say it was too big or something?

It was too big. They said it'll never pass.

**Speaker 10:** What they really want is the quarter acre circumference. That's the development area that surrounds the village. So that's where you get condensed development.

**Speaker 39:** Ultimately, that's the goal.

**Speaker 37:** You guys should be the ones looking at where you guys want the village. We will tell Bennington and go from there.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** This is a personal thing, more than it is a flat board thing. We actually had to fight

just to get this door on. But it opens us up for grants and stuff.

**Speaker 69:** Sorry. Well, I was taking the minutes of the meeting back when they created the village district. And they wanted it very large. From the town line to the bridge and out. And they submitted it to the state VCR. She said, I don't think it'll fly. And the state is the one who denied it and said, absolutely not. And gave us the postage stamp that we have. Why?

Well, they have to fund grants

**Speaker 69:** in the area. They don't want a big area. But when you've got

properties that are so far apart.

**Speaker 73:** But they turned around.

**Speaker 69:** A girl came last year, that Callie or whatever her name is, and said we can open it up. The state is allowing different things. Now's the time to change the village district.

**Speaker 37:** But there was something they were complaining about.

And it never really happened. It just kind of died. Because there was a time when she said, you guys can do whatever you want.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, I would like the plan board to look into it. And if I need to go to the plan board meeting and bring it up, I will. I'm just saying that if there is an opportunity, especially down towards the line. If I could get, like, say I go and ask for a grant for solar or windows. You know, something good. I'm not looking to ask for a grant to put something bad in. I want to do good for the town. But if there's grants available, that's nice. And there's more business that way than there is this way.

**Speaker 10:** The push this year was actually to go up to the town garage. I think that's what Pete and Lisa were trying to do. They were trying to get it extended to the garage up there to have that be open for grants. But they said it was too detached. Basically too far away from the center.

**Speaker 69:** Yeah. Going that way would not fit.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah, exactly. And there's municipal grants for these guys. For a town-village type thing. You know, if I wanted to put some town housing in or something, that would be nice. You know, it could have a couple apartments in there or something.

**Speaker 74:** I didn't bring my

**Speaker 37:** plan board with me today, but the grant that you guys received to do these sidewalks and stuff. Something to do with the transportation department and stuff. Well, we finished it. The deadline was November, no, when was it? Just a couple, just last month I think it was. It was the deadline for a grant for a village that had to be designated. And it was the same you know, it was that same grant, but only for village centers. It was basically that it had to be designated. And we are designated already. Where it goes to, I mean, I don't know if that's actually been done yet, because that's part of the town.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, I'd like to just look at it, if it can be expanded, which it sounds like it can be. And it will, if it doesn't

**Speaker 74:** pass, it doesn't pass.

**Speaker 37:** Come to the next planning commission meeting. I think Lisa put Callie on the agenda again, because there's been some movement in the

**Speaker 70:** town plan and stuff. When is your next meeting?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** On Mondays?

**Speaker 10:** Second Monday. I mean, I think you can submit whatever you want to the state,

and then it goes to some board of approval for it. Well, you already have one, so it wouldn't hurt to ask now, right? Well, if you wanted to expand it, you would probably have to go I mean, I think You wouldn't lose the whole thing, would you? No, no. That's what I'm saying, so if you already have this, and you just want to make it bigger, it doesn't hurt to ask. I agree with you. I think it should be all made to the line, just from the bridge to the line. Okay. Mike, it's the 13th.

**Speaker 1:** 13th. This makes sense. Over here. Okay.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** New business? Can I have a motion to go into executive session? Deb, were you coming in? Or we solved all your problems now? That was your

That was your question. Unless you need me to No, I think we're good. Jim, you wanted to come in. Okay. Good night, Bill. Motion? I'm sorry. You're probably a little Yeah, you'll be okay.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Is it for personnel? To address this letter from

To address our ethics violation or whatever?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Is that What do I call

that? All personnel. Personnel member? Yep. Oh, to go in? No, you can stand. Put it back. I don't know. Keep it up. Oh. Yeah. No. Okay. Is that going to be

**Speaker 41:** Yep.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Thanks.