---
title: "Stamford Select Board — May 15, 2025"
date: 2025-05-15
session: regular
speaker_labels: 0 cluster(s) named from the roll call and that meeting's chair in the minutes, 1 named from roster attendance, 12 of 13 clusters unnamed
voice_ids: {"SPEAKER_00":11,"SPEAKER_01":22,"SPEAKER_02":3,"SPEAKER_03":14,"SPEAKER_04":15,"SPEAKER_05":82,"SPEAKER_06":2,"SPEAKER_08":81,"SPEAKER_09":8,"SPEAKER_10":9,"SPEAKER_11":12,"SPEAKER_12":4,"SPEAKER_13":10}
duration_min: 63
audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asA7zB4P_uA
audio_source: YouTube (@jgramlin78)
minutes: https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Sbd%20Minutes%205-15-25.pdf
minutes_pending: false
present: [Michael G. Denault, Douglas Wright, Kurt Gamari]
absent: [Nancy L. Bushika, John Dunn]
transcribed: 2026-10-12 (faster-whisper large-v3, CUDA; names corrected per data/name_fixes.json)
diarization: pyannote/speaker-diarization-3.1 (automated; cluster labels may over-split a single voice; unattributed paragraphs have no reliable speaker)
---

# Stamford Select Board — May 15, 2025

**Session:** Regular · **Duration:** 63 min · [Audio](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asA7zB4P_uA) · [Minutes](https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Sbd%20Minutes%205-15-25.pdf)

**Present:** Michael G. Denault, Douglas Wright, Kurt Gamari
**Absent:** Nancy L. Bushika, John Dunn

---
**Speaker 1:** I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** My name is Nancy Pachica. Alright, welcome to the meeting of the Stamford Select Board. If you have a matter to discuss that's not included on the agenda, you may do so by addressing the chairperson and stating your name and address. That's all it says on here. We always give five minutes. I see it's a big turnout tonight. So, I'm going to stick to the 15 minutes per subject matter. I'm not going to let everybody go crazy tonight, okay? So, I've seen a lot of letters come in. We read them. We know what we're talking about. I'm not going to let everybody just go crazy. I'm not going to let everybody just go crazy until 9 o'clock. Select Board members. Michael G. Denault, Douglas Wright, Kurt Gamara. Do we have anything to add or change?

**Speaker 2:** Changes? No additions? I know you mentioned an executive session.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, I want to add an executive session at the end for personnel. We have one on there for the litigation, too, but I don't know if we have anything. That won't be necessary. Anything else? Okay. Here are the visitors. Marta.

**Speaker 3:** First of all, I'd like to thank everybody who came for an update in the rain for the bigger reward of a slightly soggy DOMA because it showed up, and I thank everyone for doing that. Also, I'd like to thank everyone who helped or attended the resiliency fair. It was really nice to see folks coming together. Saw a lot of folks I know. People worked really hard on it and met a bunch of new people that I've never seen, which, that was great. Welcome to town. I'd like to say something, and I'd like to ask something. I'd like to say that I miss the feeling, which I so strongly experienced when I first came to this town 24 years ago, of the wonderful sense that neighbors and townspeople looked out for each other, helped each other, worked together, and valued the unique situation of living together in a small town where we lend each other a hand happily and proudly. I'd like to ask about a code of conduct for representing townspeople. Does this board condone appointed or elected committee members gossiping in meetings about a fellow committee member not present or spreading malicious rumors? Or present themselves as a spokesman for a board without approval from that board and unilaterally approach, without setting up a meeting, members of our town? What is the proper and respectful way to engage around regulatory issues and oversight, and what are the proper channels and sequence? Thanks.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay. So, I'm not going to answer all your questions tonight, but I will be discussing the code of ethics. We are going to be passing our code of ethics tonight, signing it, and I will be discussing that with the rest of the board later. We have two board members not here tonight, and I'd like to have both of them here, but in lieu of all the emails and comments, I'd like to have both of them here. I think we'll have a lot of emails and texts and phone calls and everything else.

**Speaker 4:** It's definitely going to be addressed. David. Yes, I have two subjects tonight. The first one involves the National Highway. I sent the letter, probably one of the emails that you got, because I was asked to do as part of my committee. Mm-hmm. as much as I could about the National Scenic Highway right away. And like Jim, who did extensive work, and I thank him for his work, I finally received a letter from the Travel Council who's supposed to oversee the Scenic Highway and what you can do and what you can't. You saw, did you read the letter he sent you? Did everybody else on the planet board read the letter he sent? Yes. Okay, okay. So he came back and said, basically Trump, let go of the federal administrator. They don't have anybody to spearhead this and go back to your town. So I conceded, I sent the letter out saying, hey, look, I've taken this as far as I can go. There's nothing more I can do about this, but as soon as you say that, I got a call today. And from the permit person that, let's see, is Dave here? No. I don't see Dave. They said, who else was involved with the state coming down to Medjugorje? I remember during one of the meetings, somebody said they came down and they measured it. Was that you, Jim? Did you say you were involved right away? Getting measured? I'm just looking, look, I watch the videos like everybody. It's okay? Sure. And I hear all the accusations and it's here and there. I just want to pass this. So, just give me a minute. Jeff, can you please provide the ROW plan for Stamford Vermont 100? In front of the Stamford Elementary School, David Salvo, a representative of the town, ZBA, Conservation Committee, Planning Commission, I only signed my name for the board because I've been told I'm pompous and I tend to get up on my bully pulpit too often, so just letting you know where that's coming from, is interested in what the process is, if a town were interested in acquiring a portion of the right-of-way. If you could provide a general outline of a process in an estimated timeline of potential cost, that would be appreciated. Dave copied on his email. So, why would I be trying to get a right-of-way for this town? What have I been saying to you, Jim, over and over and over. No, I'm just saying, I'm not trying to go back and forth.

**Speaker 5:** I just can't give no reason.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I understand that you're meeting the planning board. Let's just stick to what you want to talk about.

**Speaker 4:** I've said to the planning board, I'm concerned about the right of way. It doesn't start from the state highway. It starts in the parking lot. I had no way to prove it because I couldn't get, I'm not the road commissioner. I didn't have access to any of these people, but I tried and tried because the last thing I wanted to do was have another sign taken down. I didn't object to the other sign being noticed. I just wanted it done right so that we didn't go through this two years of wasting our time trying to get this done. When there's so many other important things we could have been doing, that's just my opinion. So it says here, in Vermont, a place in a school town, office, library, or park sign 25 feet from the National Scenic Highway without a permit would likely not be allowed as it could impact Scenic View. Specifically, you would need a state highway access work permit from the agency of transportation. How many times have I said this to the board? Pete, you're the chairman. You ever hear that before from me? Anybody? Okay, so here's a picture they sent out to me today. Take a look at this yellow line right here. See it? Mm-hmm. See it? Kurt?

**Speaker 6:** Brain over here.

**Speaker 4:** I'll give you one. Hold on. So you can all look at it at the same time. You see that yellow line? You see the blue line that goes below it? That's the state right-of-way. What I've been saying all along. It doesn't start at the highway. It starts in the school parking lot. We have to go 25 feet from this right there. So how are we gonna put a sign that's already in the state highway?

**Speaker 7:** I don't know.

**Speaker 8:** You're close to having to rip the front of the school off,

**Speaker 6:** too, I don't think, right?

**Speaker 4:** Ah, and you know, guess who gave away the right-of-ways? The land. Five cents. Gamari? Gamari? What? I'm telling you we gave the right-of-way. I got the maps here for you. All right. So hold on a minute. What's your point?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** The point is that these people's- Because you've gone over five minutes on just this one subject. You said, yeah.

**Speaker 4:** Oh, really? I'll check with that because I got so many time. You're more than welcome to do either, too. Okay, sorry. I got a little map here for you. Don't mind me shaking. I have a illness that I'm fighting. I have the maps, and I can get them to you afterwards. Oh, here they are. Kirk, two maps. You can see who the grantors were for. So anyway, the state owns this. And what I, okay, let me finish. This is important for the town. Why don't you finish? Go ahead. What I'm trying to do with the state is have them give us back the right-of-way. For nothing. Mm-hmm. They say that we could pay market value. I don't know why they jogged it out. But I knew when I did the sidewalk grant, we ran into this. I tried to explain this over and over again, but nobody wanted to listen. Okay.

**Speaker 8:** So here.

**Speaker 4:** What does that map say? That's way too small. I need a magnifying glass. Well, you can blow it up. That's what I got. What do you want me to do? Can I give it? Yeah. These are for you. I love maps. Yeah, and also, this is from the state. Not running the road. This is what my committee asked me to do.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Right, and this is what this is, is a planning board committee subject. The whole thing is a planning board committee subject. Bring it to the planning board. Oh, thank you. You guys can come back to us as a board, and we will discuss it.

**Speaker 4:** So when I watched the video of the last meeting, you guys spent an hour talking about somebody on the boards running the road, never mentioned any names, and they also talked about how during the meetings, you're out of control. All I have to say, and I'm going to let this go, because I've got it in my second subject. Ben Gilsen, whatever. I am not guilty of anything. Just watch the video. In fact, take the tape recordings from 2001, my first target year. You show me where Dave Selle will ever holler at any point.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Listen, Dave. Dave, I'm going to stop you right there. Okay. Okay? Listen to me now, okay? Yeah, I'm listening. Nancy Bushika is the chairman on all those videos. Okay? Okay. I'm the co-chairman acting as chairman tonight. I'm telling you that this is a planning board situation. All those videos you talked about, I don't want to get into it with you. I am not the chairman. You can't bring that up with a chairman, okay? Now, that's going to be . David, I'm speaking now, okay? You've had more, well, over five minutes. You only get five minutes. Five minutes per person. Something. No, it's five minutes per person. You can't come in here with 50 subjects in this talk all night. I know, never have.

**Speaker 9:** And I'm just saying, but the rules are-

**Speaker 4:** Like if you don't want to hear me just say it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** No, David, if you didn't start an argument, if you didn't start an argument, listen, that's it, that's enough. Okay. That's enough. I don't know why you want to express so much energy. That's enough. Guys, that's enough. Okay, who's next? Who's in the right? Who's not? David, that's enough. Sit down. There's another very important subject you have to address. Well, if you didn't start an argument, I'd let you speak.

**Speaker 4:** Okay, that's your opinion. All right.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, I accept it. You want to stop arguing and keep going back and forth at me, then you can speak.

**Speaker 5:** I said you were right.

**Speaker 4:** Okay, then speak. Go ahead. The second subject, very quick, and I'll get off it, then everybody can do whatever they want to do. Yeah, okay. So in regards to the libelous. The statement that you made to me, that's not this court decision, but you allowed it to go on the last meeting. That's not your reason.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I didn't say that. I said that I'm not the chairman.

**Speaker 4:** Can I speak on the libelous accusation you made about me?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Go ahead. Okay, thank you. I'm a big freedom of speech person, go ahead.

**Speaker 4:** Thank you. I was accused of usurping the microphone, not at the last meeting, but the meeting before. Bill has said it many times. That I've usurped the, that's a criminal act, okay? That's the words that were used by Ms. So, very quickly, and I'm going to get off this fast. The moderator will recognize the member of the select board of petitioners, which I was, the petitioner of that article, to move the adoption of the article for the, it goes on and on, it's, this is by statute, out of the moderators, you know what. What they want you to do is, the petitioner should be at a microphone, or ask Ms. to explain to a petitioner. That's what I did. I walked up, I asked, I just came off that surgery, and I said, I need that block. I've been in this town 50 years. So many people walked up to that microphone, Bill.

**Speaker 9:** It shouldn't talk to me.

**Speaker 4:** Okay, I'm just telling you, stay on this. Yep. He's going to criticize you during this. Okay. During these meetings.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** All right, so that's the, again, that was a town meeting, it wasn't a select board meeting. There was a moderator in charge, okay? So, I'm just telling you, I'm just telling you, that wasn't this board, okay?

**Speaker 4:** Okay, I got to understand something before I go in for it. Isn't that a year and a half ago? Why aren't you suddenly bringing it up? Well, I understand. The statements from town officials are being made for the select board. And I can't defend those. That means I'm guilty. So what you're telling me is when you allow that type of talk to happen, that the planned board committee is insane, the amount of information that is getting is insane, I'm supposed to just sit back and say thank you very much? And that's not so. I just gave you a chance to defend yourself. Oh, thank you. So the last thing, and I'll get off it. People can do whatever they want. I was approached by a town member two weeks ago, as a member of the CDA, asking me what's going on down there. I did not know. I came to the town meeting. I asked Deb Bouchard during the meeting because lack of communication over the FEMA thing, not being able to knock your house down. We haven't spoke. I spoke to her outside. I said, well, please, no, we haven't spoken. I asked her during the meeting when the house next to the river got blocked. I said, do we have the proper permit there? Her answer to me, and she denied this, but that's fine. I was out of town. I don't know what was going on. Turns out we needed a lot of permits. And they needed a lot of permits. When I coached- Please talk to me then. Okay. When I coached them. When I coached the owner, she told me she had everything she needed. And I said, fine. I got accused of screaming at her at one of the meetings, which I looked at and looked at the video, never happened. Denied that for a little bit, but I didn't scream at her. I've never stood up to threaten anybody in my life. I didn't hope all these people could say the same. Long story short, the state sent me from the asbestos. Asbestos and lead, any renovation, private or public, to just comment, it's a private church, that's fine, he's not wrong. Well, it doesn't matter. When you do any demolition, any demolition, okay? You haven't yet, let me finish.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah, but I want to let you finish, but we've got to wrap it up. Well, we will wrap it up. Okay.

**Speaker 5:** These are kind of important things you guys can just let me wrap it up.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I understand your opinion, but I need to wrap it up.

**Speaker 9:** I need to wrap it up, I'm a member of three boards in this town.

**Speaker 4:** I understand. Okay, first thing you got to do is get a fire safety permit. Look at. To let me finish, because there was something said during the meeting, you didn't need a permit. I'm just trying to address who said it. You need a fire safety permit for a licensed state, licensed lead and asbestos inspector to come down to the building, recognize what's in it, if anything has to be remediated, remediated before demolition can be done. It wasn't done, they sent, I know who to stop. Now, I don't know what's going on, I'm sorry that happened, I was told they had all the permits. But when you've got people in towns, what's going on, I just like the sign, I know how this thing's going to snowball. Okay. Another two years. So, you know, I have hours of stuff, what I'm going to do, I'm going to copy it to you. You guys can leave it at your leisure, this is insane as it is. I will copy all the boards like I always do. Last point, somebody said, I'm sending stuff with just my name, I have the right to do that. In Vermont, when I go out to anybody, DLCT, lawyers, whatever, personal ZDA, planning commission. Mm-hm. Conservation. I may have missed one, so I, you know, I've been doing this all the time. I don't sign it that way because I think it is pompous for me to my board members, this way, get yourselves, ZDA, planning commission, select board chair. You name it, I've been on it this time. So, I tried it. And- Okay. We're powerful this time. I really have. I understand that. From the right on through. I understand that. You're sitting in this building that I built right here. I do this. Okay. And a lot of the shield warrants have. Okay. Let's just hold and sell all our money, right? Mm-hm. To be treated like this, anybody can call me any time. I've signed every one of my emails. If I didn't send it through war the way I'm doing it, you tell me, what am I doing wrong? If I don't send it through war, I'm in violation of the open meeting law.

**Speaker 10:** Mm-hm.

**Speaker 4:** I don't have to do it. Thank you.

**Speaker 10:** Hi, we live on a private road, and we're having a meeting. I'm just wondering if there's any guidelines to maintain the standard maintenance for private roads. And we would get that information. Like, I'm assuming you need to have a ambulance and a private truck to get up the road, but, so that's a standard there. But is there anything written or guidelines for that? Who owns the roads? It's probably the only way. Mm-hm.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** This is up here?

**Speaker 11:** Adjacent property owners. Yeah.

**Speaker 12:** Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I personally don't think there is any guidelines through the calendar at all.

**Speaker 13:** Aren't there some, like, as far as, like, having to do with driveways and stuff like that?

**Speaker 6:** The way I understand it, it's up to the owner of the private road. I've been concerned about these issues for a long time, especially as development might continue in private roads. Right. I mean, eventually, there's going to be taxpayers on that private road. I would recommend it to live on a private road and there's some kind of contractual agreement that would go along with that.

**Speaker 10:** Yeah, we have that, but what we need to just kind of, like, there's different interests, like, some people don't use their land much.

**Speaker 13:** You're asking like standards, right?

**Speaker 14:** You're asking for standards that, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, that would be, I mean, we can, we can update, but I don't think there's any standards.

**Speaker 6:** I think it falls on who owns the road, that might have to be.

**Speaker 15:** We've been through, well, we've been through a lot. That, that's been through the same, yeah. We have, um, I worked with Dave and, I mean, they're really smart and true standards. It is, and I think I worked with Bill Levine also, it's really important to have a place to turn right for fire. I know that's, am I correct, Bill? Yep. Yeah. And I think that was, like, the main thing that kind of hit home with us. My husband and I. Yeah. He overdoes everything, so the road is quite nice. Which is great. But it's, it's wide enough to pass. So he knows. Yep. Yep. With a little room. And so if you're pulling a trailer. But it's not a standard. Right.

**Speaker 6:** We have the common roads that aren't wide enough to. I mean, if the person that owns the road is not willing to do it. Right. This is a big problem, this is a big problem that this town really needs to address and wrap our, wrap our heads around because. We can ask Dave. It's going to cause major issues. We've got five, six taxpayers say they bought behind the homeowner that owns the road on the front and he decides he's going to stop maintaining the road back there for whatever reason. Yeah. There's six, eight people that live behind there. There's different impacts. There'll be. Isn't there some standards for the fire department?

**Speaker 15:** I don't think Dave has an opinion. Public safety standards? Because he doesn't. On something new. He doesn't maintain it. Right. So I really don't think. You can't force anybody. No. Yeah.

**Speaker 16:** Yeah.

**Speaker 17:** Yeah.

**Speaker 10:** But anyway, we've got a name, so I just wanted to. Okay. It wouldn't hurt to ask, and you might have knowledge.

**Speaker 13:** It's not his responsibility, but he's, Dave's been working the roads for a long while. He does a really good job. He might have some suggestions. Yeah. But it's not, you know, written. I would see if you can negotiate that type of thing into whatever kind of contractual agreement that we have. Yeah. We have a contract. Just to make sure that it's, who files it? Do you guys take it? John does. John Moore.

**Speaker 10:** And, you know, it's just the rate.

**Speaker 18:** Yeah.

**Speaker 6:** Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

**Speaker 10:** Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. soc cubes. All of those things. But so there's a that's a problem. Yeah. It's a problem apart from other things in the community. There's problems to help people who don't want to be psych jardined. Yeah. So here on the state of California, whoa, we can get real hair on. I guess you will do that.

**Speaker 18:** Yeah.

**Speaker 6:** But this is just a basic standard of care just so you can drive up the road. And I was thinking you know to allow fire trucks, and we didn't . Hey David, you know, it's a problem. There's a bunch of them in the town. Everyone's stashing names in their driveways and all. So. Yeah. And it's going to be an issue. All right.

**Speaker 10:** And then I have two other questions. Well, I'm sorry presentation. This is . So I participated in Clean Up Day, and I participated in that three years ago. And three years ago I discovered a five gallon container of spent motor oil that was buried into the ditch that was at the beginning of Pondyte Road, which is, you know, we're pretty close to Hudson Road. So I reported it to, I believe, Dictator, or it might have been here at the select board meeting, I'm not sure. But that was verbal, so I'm thinking, okay, if I wrote something verbally, I might forget that. I probably would forget it, because I don't, you know, I have so much going on in my mind. So I'm wondering, something like, to me that's very concerning. So if something like that happens again, I'm suggesting that, or maybe you have better ideas, write it up with my name. Or, you know, the person's email address, who witnessed it. And just to find out what's going to, you know, how's that going to be done. And if somehow that could get back to the person that expressed the concern. Or that person could follow up.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So that container, you didn't take it out of there, you reported it.

**Speaker 10:** Well, I tried to, because I didn't. Yeah, no, I understand. So anyway, didn't finish the story. This year, I went back, my husband and I, and we had tools. I said, let's just check and see how that's doing. And it was still there. And it was all, you know, the motor wheel was gone, but it was gunky. It was the same container, you know, three years later. And so, nothing happened, it was there. And so, I feel bad that, oh, I should have checked on that back then.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, yeah, there should be some kind of follow-up on it.

**Speaker 10:** Right.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So any thoughts on that?

**Speaker 10:** That was on the end of, it's on Klondike Road, but we were getting out right before Carl and Shirley's on that same side of the street. And it was kind of close to the line.

**Speaker 6:** Right, yeah, okay, right there by the dump. The dump. Did you ever look over the bank there? Oh, my gosh. Maybe they missed the oil.

Yeah, they missed the oil. Well, that would be pretty awful if people were dumping motor oil over that banking and then it's going down and it's still up.

**Speaker 6:** Yeah. There's a potpourri, there's a potpourri of stuff down there.

**Speaker 19:** There should be game cameras there to catch these bastards.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, there's a lot on the Clarksburg side, right from the bottom of Carl's, right on Clarksburg, where that banking is atrocious. There's a sign that says there's cameras, but there's no cameras. Right. I hate to say that on camera. But, you know, Clarksburg took a step up on that. It's been reported, the dumping's been reported for 30 years, at least 40 years. Yeah, so that's a huff, that's a huff. Yeah. You know, there's a lot less dumping on Klondike and Risky Ranch now. Yes, we saw that. And there's a reason for that, and there's cameras.

**Speaker 12:** I was actually, because we...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Cameras play a big role in that.

**Speaker 10:** Oh, okay. Yeah. So we were there three years ago, there was, you know, couches and all sorts of stuff. Always. And then...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah, almost nothing now.

**Speaker 12:** Yeah.

**Speaker 10:** So that's good. Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's a good message. Yeah.

**Speaker 12:** So cameras make a difference, and then follow-ups are good.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You know, once you see it, you know, call the authorities, take care of it.

**Speaker 11:** Well, I did.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's what they know. But it's just something more substantial than normal. Yeah.

**Speaker 10:** You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. And follow-up. Yeah. You know, just so...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So I just...

**Speaker 10:** If I'm reporting it, I should follow-up with... If you report it to us, I mean, we'll follow-up indefinitely, and we should have some situation. Something like that. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

**Speaker 12:** Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

**Speaker 12:** I just want to make sure.

**Speaker 11:** Something.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Something.

**Speaker 10:** Yeah.

**Speaker 12:** Okay.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Protocop. Okay. Great. Great. Thank you very much. You're welcome. You're welcome. Anyone else? Nope? Sit down. Yeah. You're not a town resident.

**Speaker 1:** Sit... No. I'm just kidding. Alright. He's a taxpayer. No, no, no. You take... We like your taxes.

**Speaker 20:** Go ahead.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I was in a local ATV club. We're gonna go up this Saturday, weather-free.

**Speaker 21:** If not Sunday, we clean up, find like...

**Speaker 1:** I just said there's nothing up there.

**Speaker 21:** yeah you're right you're right there's a few check our signs I don't know why they

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** don't take their cans home yeah that's great thank you yeah I don't see your

**Speaker 22:** hand off come on go I know there's a lot of stuff that has to come up and the first thing I want to say I want to apologize to this woman sit right here Stephanie on behalf of the time at least my part as to the harassment and boring criminal activity towards you as you guys know you you've got a bunch of letters yeah what I've done Jim I

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** really don't want to get into it too much in this meeting because I want you go in the executive session and talk about no but I'm just saying I I don't want name-calling.

**Speaker 22:** No name-calling or nothing. But I'm just saying that it's time. Seriously, it's time. Yep. And it's... Never mind, I won't say nothing else.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** No, I understand.

**Speaker 22:** Meetings go on for three hours, and we have one subject. Right. Three hours is an exaggeration, I'm sorry. Not at all. Okay. And it goes on and on and on. And so, everything that was just discussed as far as highway, byway, and all of that stuff, it was because he misinterpreted a U.S. code that he was referring to. It's all in the emails. We were to it. It's 131.12, I think it was. It's a U.S. code. And it refers to... Now, get this. Billboards. That was his scenic route. That was his setback. And that was his umpteen hours at every meeting, taking up all the time in the world. And several people here in this room spent countless hours researching. And you know why VLCT, and you know why BRC and all of them had no idea, couldn't give us a good answer? It's because it was for billboards.

**Speaker 23:** It had nothing to do with...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** We're going to look at that. At the end of the day, I believe, and I'm not going to speak for everyone, but I believe the sign will be put up. I think that we've looked at it enough. I've looked at it. The bylaws, I look...

**Speaker 24:** I'm not referring to the sign at all.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, that's what I'm referring to is this setback stuff and back and forth. I mean, I go all the way back to me and you talking about the law about the setbacks and putting the sign up. Nope. We should have put a sign up two years ago.

**Speaker 22:** The last thing I want to say is this is you're going to shut me up too, is that we don't need somebody that's a rogue person going around threatening people. Okay. Or acting in a threatening way. That's not one of the reports here.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay.

**Speaker 22:** Okay.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Pam? Sorry.

I didn't see your hand.

**Speaker 19:** So, I'm not involved in this, but I've obviously heard some stuff. And I want to remind you, the select board appoints members to boards. In my mind, the select board is responsible for their appointments to the board. The select board is responsible for making sure that if appointees are doing things that are libelous, slanderous, intimidating people, or in any way, acting in an inappropriate manner, the select board has not only the right, I think, to remove the person from the board, the select board has a responsibility to do what is right for the town. And we cannot, as a town, we can't have the things that have been said to have gone on. We can't have boards that don't function because, and this is not personal, it's not even about one person. We cannot have boards that don't function because someone is such a problem that the board cannot function. It's up to you as the select board to do the right thing for all parties and make sure that the citizens of this town are not, you know, not subject to harassment, again, libel, slander, and also not liable for lawsuits that would come from that. Because, you know, I'm sure there's many people that push it a little too far and now the town's going to be in a lawsuit because, you know what, they don't have to put up with it and they're not going to put up with it. So it's your responsibility. It's your responsibility as the select board to deal with the appointments that you have made.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Thank you. Is that it? Deb?

**Speaker 15:** Well, I really, truthfully, agree. I listened as much as I could without really wanting to stand up and say liar, liar, liar. I literally have not spoken with Mr. Saldo in, we're probably going on two years, there were no conversations out there. There has been no direct request. I've made direct requests of him for paperwork that he's promised, no response for phone call, email. I don't, I don't want to, maybe he thought he talked to me, but.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's, yeah, that's.

**Speaker 15:** I guess I needed to be on record. Yeah, that's right. That's not fair.

**Speaker 16:** Yeah.

**Speaker 1:** Okay, thank you. Real brief on my end. Okay. Do you agree, Bush? A couple things, just one in general. I think that, you know, I think you'll touch on it. I'm assuming whenever you touch as a board, as a whole, with regards to conduct, code of conduct, like Marta had mentioned, regarding people kind of overstepping their bounds and, you know, representing themselves as part of the board. So I think that's really important. That there almost be a chain of command. You know, when I had a question for the select board, I went with Ray Comancy. And I asked my question to Comancy. I didn't come to you. I didn't go to Doug. I didn't go to John. I didn't go to Kurt. And I mean, I think that's the way both boards should communicate. And as nor would I represent myself as the chair from the planning commission without approval from the planning commission. So I think that's really important to discuss because it's, it's, you know, And the other thing I just want to address real quick is the exact accusation just in reference to my property, which he said about the tear down and the permits and whatnot. I have John Broker Campbell's emails, like pages and pages and pages. And now, granted, he no longer is a member of, you know, the board of directors. He's not a member of the board of directors. He's not a member of the board of directors. He's a member of the board of directors committee. Just bear with me for one second. I just want to give you his exact, his exact title just so that I don't misspeak for the, he was John Broker Campbell, CFM regional floodplain manager, flood, or Vermont Department of Environmental Conservation, Watershed Management Division, Rivers and Programs. So just as a heads up, just to clarify, my end, I went emailing him. I went to email and Deb, although me and her even butted heads on this one, but she did her due diligence. And I can't fault her for actually coming through and saying, are you sure there's no permits? Are you sure there's no permits? And he came right back, stayed in his statues, and sucked their, whatever, something. The river corridor. Yeah, the river corridor. And there, that there is absolutely section 6C in the bylaws prohibits, or says that there's no permits needed. Okay. And that we do not have, we have no permits needed to be pulled, the demolition of my property. I am not speaking on behalf of over there. I'm speaking specifically on that position that she didn't do anything or she didn't listen to anything and I have just page after page after page, and I'm sure she still has them. So I just want to clarify that, you know, that we went through the process. This gentleman, I got it, or she still worked there. There was somebody else now that is in that position. But, nevertheless, we have documentation that says no permits needed.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay, that's it. That's it So one thing I want to say I'm going to put it on record as you know, I want this We have a all boards meeting coming up and what I want our Words our boards to know is that all the boards in this town are a board No one person has authority at all at all Even the chair runs the meetings, but they don't have authority We actually vote for our board member to have authority to sign the bills So we vote for that She doesn't just do it on her own and every board member if you're a chair on the planning board You don't have any more power than Lisa has other than running the meeting You can't go on your own now. You can go and get information you can call be VLTC and you can call the town lawyer, but you can't go and and go on your own and just Say what's on your mind. You can't do that. You can't tell people I'm a select board member and you must It's not how it works. I bring it back to the board. We vote on it. Then we send a letter that's how it works whether it's a Dog or someone that's you know doing something wrong or another board member that we need to do We need to do it out together We're 20% of a board here. That's all we are. So I want that to be on record and that's enough about that right now

**Speaker 1:** Can I just clarify something? I'm sorry Just what you said in terms of you can go as a board member and say hey Mike, I just have a question regarding this main law or whatever But you're not going to represent the board, correct? You're just going to represent yourself

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Sure, I mean it's like we've We nominate Liaisons I'm the law enforcement liaison. I can call up the state troopers without coming back and asking And say hey look what's going on here. You were in town the other day You know someone said there was a break-in at the school book No one told us something like that and I can ask for information then I bring it back to this board

**Speaker 1:** But you're acting within official capacity Right

**Speaker 21:** Right

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** And you cannot make decisions I can't say to the law enforcement hey I want you like when we have a sheriff's when we had the sheriff's contract I want you to come down I want you to do three times the patrols and then our bill comes in and these guys would hang me you know so

**Speaker 6:** that's it you have to represent yourself as a board member like the decision was already made on the board right all the people up saying hey you know right I'm

**Speaker 25:** selling out from the board yes you know I'm a slut board member it's okay to ride up

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** there without any licenses and stuff go ahead right up there can't do that where I would all right so that's good reading and approval of the records oh one more

**Speaker 26:** okay so I had a situation I mean we're we have four of us with buildings and the whole property that seems to be so problematic we have I have been in contact andGG we'll never been in contact for flick planning I've talked to different people like what are we good like what do we need to do groundbreaking we're just absolutely just doing weird things I did get a call again from Fire Marshal who is gonna come down and do eyes on everything was fine he looked everything up however what he told me to do was to call the fire marshal who is gonna come down and do eyes on he talked to me on the phone he said we didn't actually didn't think we need anything the church today on the phone was because it was the town, a select board, acting as the town, even if he didn't feel like there was anything based on our conversation, he needed to come down and do eyes on. I'm fine with it, like we're good, we have, my dad's a retired fire chief, we have a volunteer firefighter working with us, like I am good on everything we need to do, totally fine. What makes me uncomfortable is this is the third time in two weeks that I've had a situation where someone has come acting as a board, their board, whether it's the select board, planning board, zoning board, whatever, and then kind of acted out from that position without all the information, without even asking me questions, without even engaging in conversation. I mean, we're not, we're out in the yard all the time. People can just stop and chat, like I'm a very approachable person, I'm kind of an introvert, I don't like, you know, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a, you know, but I'm a nice person, we're approachable, there's nothing that, you know, but this thing where it just, it's starting to feel like harassment, and I don't know what the protocol is or what the next steps should or need to be, I can obviously write a letter, but I just want to know, like, what are my rights as a citizen of this town? I am a citizen, I am here, I'm voting, you know.

**Speaker 13:** Can I respond? Sure. Are you done with your, no, I don't want to interrupt you. I was the one that made the call to the fire marshal. I did it in the spirit that I think it's up to me to make sure that everybody has the right permits, has gone through all the things that need to be done. I didn't come, I didn't call up and say, oh, I'm a big wheel, I identified myself so he knew my stake in it, why I was calling. So I'm telling you right openly right now, that was the reason, I was done and if everything is all right and everything's fine, then I'm good with it.

**Speaker 26:** So what I'm curious about, if I'm allowed to reply respectfully, is you're speaking as you. You represented yourself as the board.

**Speaker 13:** I didn't represent myself as the board. I represented myself as a member of the select board. I wasn't representing the board, I was just telling my position in the town. I wasn't saying I was speaking for the board.

**Speaker 6:** I'm just very uncomfortable with calling the state, with everyone just calling the state on our neighbors. We're not building any sense of community like that. What is the deal, why do we want to invite the state down in here and those around our town?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I've mentioned that a couple thousand times. Well, one thing I would, again, if a board member, if you're representing yourself and you're saying, yeah, I am a select board, I do believe that if you represent the board, you should go through the board. All of us, we should always go through the board. But if you call up, if you want to call the fire marshal on your own, that's nothing I can say about it. But if you become, if you say you're coming, you're putting that almost in a situation that the board is, when you say you're a board member, they may feel, oh, this is the board. I wish the fire marshal had called the select board and asked if this was a necessary thing. But what I would like the boards to think about is, and I agree with telling this, don't call the state. I'm not a big fan of that, but that's an opinion. But I would like to, if I saw someone in town doing something, especially someone new in town, I would go and say, hey, did you get a permit? And can I help you get the right information to find out? So call Deb Burchard for your town permits. Go to Laurie to see if there's any state permits that are needed. That's how I would approach any town member as another town member. I wouldn't do it as a, as a select board, but I would just say, hey, if you need any help, here's the people that know what they're talking about. If you need any help on a road, here's the people that, and you've been living in the town for a long, long time compared to me, but you know, if you need someone that has the intelligence of the roads and the information, here's someone that you would call and so on. And I think that's a better approach than going, they don't have a permit. I'm calling them, I'm telling them. That's what it sounds like. I'm calling them people in. And that's how I feel. All right, guys.

**Speaker 6:** We should also have faith in people like Deb

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** that are doing the job, right? We appointed her to the job. And again, before we, I think we're going to have to resolve that. Yeah, before we listen to the, so the board, and I agree, Kurt, you know, as board members here, I was approached also and said, why do you believe what Deb said? I won't say who it was or anything, but that's no different than me saying, why do I, when Dave says, I got to put it in, I put a culvert in it. I don't question that. When the fire department says we need a truck, I don't question that and say, okay. The professionals said the truck's 30 something years old. We really need a truck. Then we bring it to the people. When Laurie says that there's something going on with the new law or the new computers or the new websites, I believe her because we hire people. We appoint the planning board and the planning board comes to us with all of due diligence they did and you come up amongst all of us and say, this is what we want to do. This is our bylaws. We put faith in who's on these boards and so on. I'm going to just see how long I can keep their hands up.

**Speaker 19:** You think if you don't call on me, my hand will go down, but it will not.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** No, no, no. It will go down, but it will stay on the floor. I see you, I see you, I see you. I don't know if Mark starts that. Yeah, yeah, but again, again, I just think that it, and I agree, that if we all work together as a town, and yes, you shouldn't get away with things. You shouldn't do things wrong. I don't think there's ever any intent to say, I'm just going to do this, you know, and not know. I mean, especially if you're right on the main street, you're from, you're new in town and you're about the church. Oh yeah, I'm going to just sneak around. Yeah, I agree with you. Anyways, go ahead, Pam.

**Speaker 19:** Okay, I'm going to call a spade a spade. I've been living here for 38 years, okay? Let's be real. Lots and lots and lots and lots of people do all kinds of stuff in this town. Not the right way, all the time, and we all know it. And it's not that I am advocating for people doing the wrong thing, I guess, you know, but the reality is this situation where there is this ganging up on her, since day one, and it's not that she's told me that. It's not that anyone's told me that. It's so obvious that you can't miss it. I'm very, I'm really upset. We almost could have had something on that lot. I'm going to tell you that nobody in this town, except for the person who did it, won it. Instead, we have this person who's trying to create a community asset for us, but there's a few people in the town that have decided that they don't like her. For whatever reason, they are harassing her. She has not told me that, no one's told me that, but it's crystal clear, and I'm going on the record, it's uncalled for, it's unacceptable, and it needs to stop.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yep, agreed. So, okay, so I'm going to end the discussion about all that now, and move on, unless the board has anything else to say.

**Speaker 15:** Can I just one more time?

**Speaker 27:** I want to thank you, that's, I'm sorry.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah, okay, you were the last speaker,

**Speaker 28:** but I don't want to just keep going back and forth, right?

**Speaker 26:** I just want to make it clear, and not because I want to continue the issue, but the point of my conversation with the fire marshal today is he did say, because there's a list of questions you go through, I ran through all those questions with him. He said, yeah, you sound great to me. I have to come down, though, and do eyes on, because it's the life board asked me to. Okay. That is what he told me today. So that's fine. I'm happy to meet with him. He's showing up, sounds like a nice guy, but it wasn't.

**Speaker 6:** Well, I didn't vote on it.

**Speaker 19:** Yeah, except for the select board did not ask me to come down.

**Speaker 13:** Okay. Okay, can I respond one more time? Yes. No, I've been sitting here a little. No, you're on the board. First of all, I don't know. But I don't want to go back and forth, guys. No.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yeah.

**Speaker 13:** Okay. I think I was open here at the meeting. I didn't even, I just sat here quietly, and I explained to you openly that it was me who took the responsibility for calling. So please note that. What my thing was, I didn't call up and say I was on behalf of the select board. I mentioned that I am a select board man, so he wouldn't know I'm just somebody in town calling up, trying to take a shot. I was concerned as to whether or not these things had been addressed. And if he comes down from what you said, everything's going to be addressed, it's going to be fine. But I'm just doing, I do have, there's other people that are not in this room that have concerns, and I answer to them. Is that something funny, Tim?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay.

**Speaker 13:** Okay. The end of it. No. Come on.

**Speaker 19:** No, perfect. And the end of that. You just said he answered, he answers for them. So basically, the state is now coming down here because they think the select board has requested

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** that they come down here. Well, we'll find that out. But that's enough on that subject. Let's move on now. Okay, we've spent almost an hour on this. Okay. Okay. Reading and approval of the records and orders. Motion to approve.

**Speaker 13:** Okay, I do have a, not a change, something in the minutes from last week I would like to have more specifically written out. It was a conversation between me and Deb. And I asked what's going on. It's about 48 minutes into the Jed's video. And I asked what's going on with the, what is it? It was Kay's Creamery. And Deb said, I'm not sure they have it state for, anyway, I would like that to be put in as it's actually stated. It's just kind of like a summary of what's in it.

**Speaker 2:** Do you know how it was actually stated for me to put in? Or do you want me to?

**Speaker 13:** Well, I can give it to you here, but you may want to look anyway. Okay. But I do have it here. I can give it to you.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay. All right. Motion to approve. Minutes. Motion to approve. Second. With the amendment. All in favor? All right. Dave's not here. Road conditions. He talked to you at all? Okay. Did a good job on Collins Road today. Yeah, he did. I took a ride around some of the dirt roads and they look pretty good. A little bumpy here and there as usual, but I've been doing this for 11 years and it's been the same every year. I'll tell you what, your road's better now than it was 30 years ago. That's for damn sure. Oh, yeah. No, the road's fine. Yeah, it's beautiful. Recycling? Nothing. Nothing, nothing, nothing. That's nice. Discussion. Review election results.

**Speaker 2:** So, school vote passed. Dr. Sharn has accepted the three-year term as solicitor. She received 100 votes. Sally Boll, we do not know if she'll accept this two-year term. It's a three-year position. There were not enough votes running right in on the third year.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, I got a question. If someone came up tomorrow and wanted to do it, just like any other elected position, we can appoint them, right? Now, does that go back to the appointed or is it now in an elected position that we appoint an elected position?

**Speaker 2:** It's an elected position that you would appoint only to finish.

**Speaker 29:** So, they can get the education and all that.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay, that's my question.

**Speaker 6:** Just a question of curiosity, I guess. Is there a minimum amount of votes that you need on a write-in to seven?

**Speaker 2:** You need 1% of her voter checklist, which would be eight votes.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Eight. She got eight.

**Speaker 2:** So, there were a lot of write-ins that received one, two, three, four. You need to have at least eight.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Did you raise your hand? You want to be a listener?

**Speaker 30:** I think I- That's not what I was doing.

**Speaker 31:** It was a different motion I was making, and I was not raising my hand.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, I know, but I just thought you- That was raising the noose. Yeah, okay. All right. Review Employee Policy Handbook. Table it. We have some other members on that. Thank you, John and Nancy. Correspondence, you have signed grant.

**Speaker 2:** So, I have a letter of intent to participate in next year's municipal roads grant made program. Jim Henderson came down met with dave and drove around looked at the roads i think what they'd like to do is some work on sportsmen culverts and ditching and whatnot okay so i think that's the plan can we

**Speaker 32:** sign this or do we wait for do we have time to wait or no you really need to sign we can sign

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** it okay so motion to sign it sorry just me just you the power go to your head get all the power anybody want to buy the pen

**Speaker 2:** names on that document yeah and then the other thing um if you guys you reviewed the code of ethics investigation enforcement ordinance but the final wasn't ready for you to sign so if you want to do a motion to adopt it in its final form and you can all sign on you sent this to us

**Speaker 24:** an email

**Speaker 22:** mike i'm sorry i don't want to interrupt that but is it is there a difference now that they're

**Speaker 23:** no longer an ethics commission in the state oh well we can bring that up now this is our town

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** so did you you hear about that i didn't yeah okay so if you go on a website they say you're on your own they don't have any personnel personnel so they said they they've been running a one full-time guy and a part-time guy for three years and now they don't have personnel so the it shut down until further notice well so we're pretty much on our own back you know what we want we're just gonna have to go back to

**Speaker 13:** what we did before we have our own code of ethics and we do it ourselves yeah so i mean

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** CAN THE COMPLETE UNDERSTAND THE MATTER OF THE MATTER YOU CAN'T HAVE A COMP üst we might because now you know that's a good question we might have to because it says go into

**Speaker 29:** and call the state correct because you have a couple of weeks ago signed your conflict of interest

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** later

**Speaker 2:** be right conflict of interest a little bit more conflict of interest of interest

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** This is why the state drives me. I just wanted to throw it out there. No, I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah, let's postpone it just so we can, we'll have to see if we can go through it.

**Speaker 13:** Most of it is based on sending things, referring them to the state.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** To the state, yeah.

**Speaker 13:** It's kind of a dead issue.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** And if we, maybe we can just say in lieu of the state not having anything, we go to our next, you know, come up with our next plan.

**Speaker 16:** It still needs to be handled.

**Speaker 33:** Right, right. That's what I'm saying.

**Speaker 16:** If that complaint comes in to the select board, whoever receives it. Which I always wanted to. Somebody's got to answer for it. And I think it addresses some of people's concerns tonight. Yeah. As to who takes responsibility and what their responsibilities are. And at least most of what's outlined in that. There's pretty good guidelines for you to bring up at the all-boards meeting as well.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Right. So do you want to wait or do you want to amend it? Yeah. Next meeting? Because we do have an old one. So we can still go by the old one.

**Speaker 13:** So much of that is based on going through the state. Really that's more procedural.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So we'll wait on that. Okay. Is that it? Correspondents?

**Speaker 32:** That's it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's it? That's it. Old business. New business. Old business back there. Oh.

**Speaker 34:** Hi.

Hi.

**Speaker 35:** I want to address old business because it was old business at the last meeting. And I was surprised it was old business because I didn't know it was old business. I'm Natalie O'Neill. I've been a resident here for four years. And I've just started going over to Lovely Farm here down the main road. And I've been there for the last two weeks on a Thursday where I've seen someone approach someone and the capacity of an official from the town during a time that wasn't there. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. And I've been there for a while. asked for invited um and taking their time my personal time as a community member and feeling other people in the community members to feel unwelcome in that space and i don't think that's what we want here in our town i hope that's not what we want here in our town that's not what i would like to see in our town and i was very upset to come to this meeting at the first of the month and hear that this was old business in the way that it was spoken about in this room last time so i'm sorry that was even spoken about within the 15 minutes that i wasn't here in the beginning um i'm also sad that there aren't younger people here in the room that have um a buy in this community that would love to see something flourish there um as well as young people my age that are attending as well there in the classes and others that are in this room that are attending classes there so i would ask us as a resident um if there's select board meeting or meeting town just stuff it can be arranged in this time and space and not taken up on personal time of theirs or mine as a community sure so i'm coming to the space to take up time and space of yours and your time and space um so i don't appreciate being ignored in the time that it could have been addressed before i apologize for being linked but again

**Speaker 34:** this was old business so sure bringing into your attention yeah so i don't think i ignored you i'm

**Speaker 36:** sorry if i did i'll be like him and hold my hand up as long as i can well i didn't i'm sorry i did

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** not i really i didn't i didn't even see your hand but um because i'm a big uh first amendment allow uh one thing i would like to say to new residents and old residents uh and i can tell you a story we had another selectboard member a while back that used our select board as a platform and really spoke a long time even longer than i speak and there was a resident that said they didn't have the chance and i invited that resident to get on the agenda you can get on the agenda and then you have longer periods of time to talk so if you get on the agenda you come to any one of the select board members and say can i would you put me on the agenda and if one of us sponsors that and says yes i want it on we can ask the chair and she'll put it on and then you can have more time to talk because it if everybody looks at the state law on open meeting law we don't have to let everyone speak we don't have to we do but this is the open meeting law says we just have to have this in public we you have to give a certain amount of time to speak but if it it didn't like i was telling the other person here you can't have 20 subjects and talk five minutes on every subject that's not how it works or we could be here all night okay but i i apologize i didn't see your hand but i don't i don't ignore anyone okay yeah yeah i definitely uh try not to ignore anyone okay thank you that it that's it i don't have anything okay motion to enter an executive session for the personnel and you can fill in the numbers for them later