---
title: "Stamford Select Board — August 1, 2024"
date: 2024-08-01
session: public-hearing
speaker_labels: 1 cluster(s) named from the roll call and that meeting's chair in the minutes, 1 named from roster attendance, 2 of 4 clusters unnamed
voice_ids: {"SPEAKER_01":3,"SPEAKER_03":24,"SPEAKER_04":21,"SPEAKER_05":1}
duration_min: 18
audio: https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Selectboard%20meeting%202024-8-1%20County%20Rd%20declass%20pub%20hrg.MP3
audio_source: town local
minutes: https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Sbd%20Minutes%208-1-24%20County%20Rd%20declassification%20pub%20hrg.pdf
minutes_pending: false
present: [Nancy L. Bushika, Michael G. Denault, Kurt Gamari, John Dunn]
absent: [Doug Wright]
transcribed: 2026-09-04 (faster-whisper large-v3, CUDA; names corrected per data/name_fixes.json)
diarization: pyannote/speaker-diarization-3.1 (automated; cluster labels may over-split a single voice; unattributed paragraphs have no reliable speaker)
---

# Stamford Select Board — August 1, 2024

**Session:** Public Hearing · **Duration:** 18 min · [Audio](https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Selectboard%20meeting%202024-8-1%20County%20Rd%20declass%20pub%20hrg.MP3) · [Minutes](https://townofstamfordvermont.org/mediaItems/Sbd%20Minutes%208-1-24%20County%20Rd%20declassification%20pub%20hrg.pdf)

**Present:** Nancy L. Bushika, Michael G. Denault, Kurt Gamari, John Dunn
**Absent:** Doug Wright

---
**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, I don't think so. Really? Yeah, I hate to throw this rock in the gears, or rent to the gears. So, we're up there, and although I was told don't say anything while we're up there, I was trying to get information, and so when we got to this meeting, we could have it be informed. You actually, Martina, right? Is that how you say it?

**Speaker 1:** Martina, yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** As you said, if you change this to a trail, the slat board, if I'm not mistaken, kind of loses power over this. Where we can't make laws on it.

**Speaker 2:** I'm not a lawyer, and I don't want to be. I guess I'd recommend maybe you seek legal advice about what your rights are in that case if you declassify it. That would be my recommendation. Just, um... Um... Our, our, um, course engineer, that, that is, his understanding is that it's, um, as well as, like, if you read, like, the state law, as I read it, it does say a town highway is not a trail. Like, they're two distinct, there's just distinct, you know, powers that the select board has over those two. So, it's just, I mean, I don't want to tell you, I'm definitely not telling you what to do, but just maybe get the advice.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, do you believe that, now, the National Forest would have no power at all over this trail, right?

**Speaker 2:** And so, it, this is, I believe, not on the National Forest, right? It's through, it connects to the National Forest, but I think it's just a town road.

**Speaker 3:** It goes through the National Forest on both sides. Right, so you guys own both sides of the road. And you own the ground under the road. Right, so it's a, yeah. What's our connection?

**Speaker 4:** But you don't own the road. But you don't own the road. But you don't own the road. But you don't own the road.

**Speaker 2:** So, you have a legal right-of-way that's, like, no matter what, you have a right-of-way through there. It's just a matter of...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** With any vehicle?

**Speaker 5:** It's just like a road.

**Speaker 2:** Well, that's where I think the rub is, is based on what we think is if it's a road, you can regulate motorized use. But if it's a trail, again, this is where I think it's a good idea to get some legal advice. But our take on it is if it is a trail, then... You cannot, you can allow just use of it, like, but not motor, you can't, cannot allow motorized use. Again, that's just my read of it.

**Speaker 3:** So, that's what we've got. I think also, too, when you go out, I'm sorry. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. When it comes to applying for maintenance grants, all the paperwork on it, it says it's for class four roads.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, Tom, do you... You know, I'm not sure. You're not sure. You're not sure. You're not sure. You're not sure. So, I'm just asking your opinion, because you've done a lot of work on this. Do you think it's a bad idea, then?

**Speaker 4:** From everybody that I talk to, when it comes to, I guess it's the paperwork for maintenance grants. It says class four roads, right?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Yes.

**Speaker 6:** Yes, it does.

**Speaker 7:** I'll keep you honest.

**Speaker 4:** When I talk to Woodford, when I talk to other people, people in the state, they say, when it comes to a class four road, it's easier for you guys to get money in case of any damage.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** But we are required to put a little maintenance in that class four road.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Right. What type of maintenance are we talking about? Ditches. There's no culverts on it.

**Speaker 8:** There's no culverts in that.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** There has been no maintenance on that as long as I can remember by this time.

**Speaker 3:** Basically, what you have to do is just clean up the ditches.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I don't even believe they're saying ditches on the sides of that road, because it is the ditch. It's a couple of long ones. It's a riverbed. It is the riverbed. It's a riverbed. So now my next question, and I guess it's to anyone, what benefits are there to this town to change this to a trail?

**Speaker 9:** No maintenance. That's it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay. So if we say we haven't maintained it in as long as... I remember, I don't believe any person ever has gone down there, and I wish Dave was here, because I don't believe Dave has ever gone down there and maintained it. He might have driven down there, but you can't even take a town truck down that road. Right. You could not take any of our highway equipment other than maybe the tractor down that road. When it's water, it's water runoff. Yeah. So what I'm saying is, and no one's ever complained it's not maintained. We just took it and said, hey, this is a tough road to get through. It's kind of like the end of Risky Ranch Road. There's a reason why they call it Risky. And again, I want the ATV people to be able to use this connector trail. That's your whole goal. I also am hesitant now because you just walked in and said, hey, who owns that Jeep out there? That's mine. And I go over that road every single week. And I want to continue to ride. And all the other people that have legal on-off-road bikes or Jeeps or trucks that want to go through there, all the way to Pono. I can go all the way to Pono. I don't want that to stop.

**Speaker 10:** And it sounds like it could. What is the town definition of a legal trail? I know I read it somewhere at one time.

**Speaker 2:** Yeah, I don't have it. It's in the statute. I mean, it's in, I can give you a citation for all the legal. That way you can. Actually, you can have a, yeah, go ahead, while I look that up.

**Speaker 9:** So this is three-tenths of a mile. The only property that is on either side is National Forest? Yes. So nobody can buy it, so nobody can complain that it's not being maintained, correct? That makes sense. Yeah, that was my question. So why would you change it? Why can't? What is the value for changing it?

**Speaker 4:** And why are we even changing it? Why don't you change it now? If you try to bring it back up to tell them, say they do want to put a little something in the hot end, then they might be able to do a lot of work here.

**Speaker 9:** Well, that's what I'm wondering. Why would you change it? Which might say you have to have this, right? You might have to survey and.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I'm going to come back.

**Speaker 4:** The other thing is. Already in class four, if you guys open it up for ATD usage, we'll be just like we opened wood for a stage work, we'll clean the pitches out. We can't improve it. We cannot improve it. We can only maintain it. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. We can't make it a highway.

**Speaker 4:** We cannot improve the road, but we can keep the ditches open and stuff. Now, the question.

**Speaker 11:** It's part of the National Forest standards.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** That's a tough definition, too. Now, here's the next thing. If National Forest owns both sides of it, and National Forest, according to what you just told me up there, owns the Sucker Pond Road, whatever that trail is, why couldn't you get a connector trail alongside of this road that just crosses the road? I don't care if it's long side on the left or the right for just ATVs.

**Speaker 4:** That would take so many years for research, for what's in there for engineering.

**Speaker 12:** So, the frog that's here doesn't jump across that road?

**Speaker 10:** Well, it could be a salamander. I mean, I would think one of the purposes that National Forest wants more access on the roads is to deter them from having to do such things, is that right? Well, like you said, you're always fighting. When they create new roads, when they can just access roads that are existing, that would be the whole, yeah, that would be the whole objective.

**Speaker 9:** So, going back to, why are we even having this?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Well, I guess my last question would be, which is, no way it's going to be my last question, Bob. If we kept it a road, can it still be a connecting trail for ATVs? Greensboro does it, right?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** They can ride on ATVs. ATVs can ride on ATVs. They can ride on the Class 4 roads.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** But I don't want it to be called a VASA trail. I want it to be a connecting trail that you're riding on our roads. So, right now, we have given permission for people to ride on all Class D roads, or Class 4 roads. If it stays that way, and we say, okay, the VASA trail can go from here to here, but this is our road, and you can have VASA on it, but you also have to allow non-VASA vehicles. Can that be done? Well, if it's a Class 4 road, yeah. We can't.

**Speaker 2:** We can't say that. Right.

**Speaker 1:** So, no, no, I'm not saying we're going to call it a VASA.

**Speaker 13:** I don't want it becoming just a VASA trail.

**Speaker 14:** No, no.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** It's a town. So, that way there, and Powell does that already, right? They already have a trail. County Road is part of VASA accessibility, I guess. Yes, accessibility. Right. Well, if it's a Class 4 road, it's a VASA trail.

**Speaker 9:** Right.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** If it's a Class 4 road, it's a VASA trail. Right. If it's a Class 4 road, it's a VASA trail. Right. They already have a trail. County Road is part of VASA accessibility.

**Speaker 15:** Yes, accessibility.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, they took it off the Piner Road off the map when there was no connection. When you guys closed down the standard, you could legally ride on a Class 4 road? Yes. Oh, I didn't know that. This is pilot traffic.

**Speaker 9:** In Reesboro, you ride all over there, roads.

**Speaker 16:** The rides, the rides, the rides.

**Speaker 4:** Right. We're starting the only one. Right. So, you can legally drive on a Class 4 road. Yes. Oh, I didn't know that. This is pilot traffic. In Reesboro, you ride all over there, roads. The rides, the rides, the roads. Right. We're starting the only one. We're starting the only one.

**Speaker 17:** Right.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So, it doesn't make sense to me, and again, right out of the box, and at first, I was like, you, I was like, this sounds like a good idea, or it sounded like you guys wanted us to go in that direction. Dave sounded like he was on board, but now, it's like I'm going the other way, and it sounds like the sign problem all over again.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I have a question, Lori. No, never again. Never again. Does the town get paid for Class 4 roads?

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I guess, like Tom was saying, if there happens to be a national, like a big hurricane comes through, and it takes all the trees down, then we can take pictures of that and say, FEMA, look at the damage. We can get money. If it's a trail, we don't get any money. Right. So, now, we go up there, we're chainsaws, and we do it ourselves, and that's as far as we can go.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Now, the only, the only thing I, I say, because it's the only thing I can say, is that the town road, Class 4, any work that's done on it will have to go through Dave, approved by him, and done.

**Speaker 6:** You have to come down, just like we do in Woodford.

**Speaker 3:** Yeah. Come down here and tell them, guys, right now, there's a project up in Woodford, on the stage coach road. Which work was done at, done on that road, by private citizens, that did not go through this project. This is our next project up here. They did work on Stamford? Yup.

**Speaker 8:** And I don't know if that was your club or not.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

**Speaker 13:** I don't know.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I don't know.

**Speaker 18:** I don't know.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** I don't know. I don't know if that was your club or not. But work was done on that road, and on Riskey Ranch Road, without the permission of this town. On town road? I know that for a fact. On the town road? What?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Probably three, four years ago?

**Speaker 18:** Excavator was up there.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** They cleaned up the sippy hole. They put water breaks on county road. Yup. And they put water breaks in, too, on county road. With the excavator. I know for a fact. I can't say who did it, but I knew. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I say who did it, but I know it was done. Yeah. It was a bad job. We're not saying it was done. Mm-hmm. I mean.. Great. ... actually did a good job. But that did get done without the permission of the town. And that was a class four road, at the time. Also, Riskey Ranch was worked on by camp owners. Do you... Yeah, grant me for a second.

**Speaker 9:** We know that. We go down 1 to 302. There's a section...

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Oh, I know. I know. Yup. That's But this was.. this went up to this 0.3 miles that we're talking about and was done too uh which is fine i mean i'm not saying it's fine by the town standard but it got done if it was a trail i think you still have to ask permission it's not your land you know i mean if you go on the side you have to ask but nevertheless i did this over with i think or now i guess this will always go on but it doesn't make sense to me at this point to change anything and i don't think it's going to help you guys at all for a connecting road according to the information i have so why does why not just leave it the way it is for now and if down the road it needs to be changed and we get more information we can come up with that that makes sense

**Speaker 2:** down there i think we're good keeping in a class four road the key issue as we talked about is bennington getting the permission on the other side as well the only other way john and i were

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** thinking is the select board makes a law that each of us get atv and we'll pass a bylaw that we can go up there and see what the maintenance is you know just for inspection yeah yeah yeah well all five of us want one oh yes she wants one she wants a pink one with a sticker on it yeah yeah and a cute little helmet yeah right oh that's on the side though do you need a helmet and a side-by-side with seatbelts um okay but you do need a helmet even on saturday one of those bicycles yeah

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** it

**Speaker 18:** over you against the little cage okay no i'm just asking because my jeep and your side-by-side are

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** pretty much about the same as a matter of fact you're wearing a seat belt of us do you right and your your your vehicle is probably actually better than a jeep i don't have to wear a helmet so i'm just wondering what the logic is i don't want to make me wear the helmet so you can't hurt

**Speaker 2:** this um it's title 19 highways and title 23 motor vehicles in the country and we're gonna do that in in the Vermont state statutes. What section? That defines. That define like highways, trails, it's section 19, 301, 302, 304, 310. This is all in chapter 19 and the chapter 20, title, sorry, title 23, chapter four, chapter 3506 is operation of ATVs, three. Why don't they just put everything together instead of just jumping around and rewriting it.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So you have to call a lawyer.

**Speaker 2:** And yeah, anyway, those are like some of the. Thank you. Okay. If you just Google it or look it up. Yeah.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** So I don't know if we can make motions during this hearing or we just wait.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I would say wait until, yeah, I'd like to talk to Dave.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay, because I just don't, there's nothing swaying. You don't want me to go and turn this into a trailer.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** He's coming in at six.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** He's coming in at six?

**Speaker 13:** No, Dave won't be here.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Dave's out of town.

**Speaker 13:** Yeah, he won't be here for two weeks.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** He's not here tonight.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** So any other questions for the public hearing? Just a date when you're gonna contact a lawyer. I don't know if we're going to.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Oh, okay. Do we, yeah, do we really need to know?

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** If we look this up and we can. How many terms? Do we get free consultation?

**Speaker 10:** No, it doesn't seem to work out too good for us. We can look this up and read it. Again, I said I was never gonna mention a sign again, so don't. Right.

**Speaker 19:** I don't think you need to contact a lawyer yet.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** I think if we read this, see how we interpret it, they'd do one thing and.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** You know, I'm all for the ATV ride, and you know that. And if we can, if something needs to be done and it's for the good of the ATV group in the town at the same time, I'm all for that. It just doesn't, you know, you've gotta sway for the best. But then you can't ride it. Well, exactly, but if it's for the best of them, and that's the thing, we have, right now we have the best of both worlds, ATVs, side-by-sides, they can go up that road, right now, legally, as long as they're all, you know, laws, and so can't all the other vehicles. You know, we do have, you know, people that use GPSs with, you know, school buses that go that way too and get stuck, but that's not my problem.

Not a good idea. And, you know, it's a good access

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** for the emergency department, too. It is, it is.

**Speaker 2:** Yeah, and I will find out about the 301 road and getting the key to the, I will make a note of that, the key for you to that gate.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Okay. Thank you. Yeah. I am a liaison to law enforcement, so you can get me a key if you want. Good hon up there.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay, if there's nothing else, I'd like to have a motion to adjourn the public hearing.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Motion to adjourn.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Second.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Second.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** All in favor.

**Michael G. Denault (inferred):** Aye.

**Nancy L. Bushika (Chair):** Okay. So, we'll wait a few minutes and start the select board meeting at six.

**Speaker 4:** Is that clock changes every year? So, I did go up and take a walk up there, but you've been here a million times. Yes. So, what is the meeting about?